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Author Topic: The Position of the Bolt on the MC  (Read 43248 times)

Offline Jim Hawthorn

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2022, 02:27:43 PM »
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It clearly shows that when the full clip of six rounds is inserted into the magazine there is no room to place a seventh cartridge on top of the stack of six rounds that are in the clip....

But the only thing that interests us here is whether one could place a live round into the chamber when the clip is empty.

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2022, 02:27:43 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2022, 03:48:24 PM »
But the only thing that interests us here is whether one could place a live round into the chamber when the clip is empty.

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?

Mr. McCloy. Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; you can.
Mr. McCloy. What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually load-
ing one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. The only other way you can flre it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired
with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. M&LOY. The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Faazma. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.

               

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2022, 04:36:23 PM »
But the only thing that interests us here is whether one could place a live round into the chamber when the clip is empty.

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?

IF the gun was used that day up on the 6th floor, isn't it possible that the 4th and last round in the clip was pushed up into the firing chamber, the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired. Then, when the rifle was dropped between the carboard boxes, the bolt got caught by a box edge and popped open?

the bold was locked but the round wasn't fired.

Fair question.... That is what probably would have happened if the shooter had fired three of the four rounds in the clip.  He very likely would automatically ( reflex action) have loaded the fourth round into the chamber..

BUT ....When the bolt is closed and latched it probably wouldn't have been unlatched and retracted about an inch by merely bumping the bolt by dropping it between boxes ......The weight of the rifle would not be sufficient to unlatch the bolt , and the bolt certainly wouldn't have been retracted.

I have an advantage.....because I can actually perform the suggested actions.... and you can rest assured that the fourth round did NOT get loaded into the chamber by being pushed there while being married to the bolt.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 05:08:09 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2022, 04:36:23 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #75 on: July 24, 2022, 04:58:50 PM »
Mr. McCloy. Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; you can.
Mr. McCloy. What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually load-
ing one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. The only other way you can flre it is by way of manual load?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. MCCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired
with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. M&LOY. The same as the .30-06?
Mr. Faazma. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.

               

No, it will NOT hold a maximum of seven.   Please don't take my word for it ..... LOOK  at the cut away illustration on page 2 of this thread.

Offline Jim Hawthorn

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2022, 05:11:07 PM »
BUT ....When the bolt is closed and latched it probably wouldn't have been unlatched and retracted about an inch by merely bumping the bolt by dropping it between boxes ......The weight of the rifle would not be sufficient to unlatch the bolt , and the bolt certainly wouldn't have been retracted.

But the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock. The bolt was in the forward position but simply with the knob handle lifted upwards:


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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #76 on: July 24, 2022, 05:11:07 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #77 on: July 24, 2022, 05:32:30 PM »
No, it will NOT hold a maximum of seven.   Please don't take my word for it ..... LOOK  at the cut away illustration on page 2 of this thread.

Here are some consecutive frames from that animation:


















These frames show the fully loaded clip being pushed down and locked in place. There are six (count them) cartridges in the clip and they are all below the bottom of the receiver chamber and the level of the bottom of the bolt. This is also shown in blabbermouth's video. Simply place a seventh cartridge in the receiver chamber and slide the bolt forward. The seventh cartridge will be pushed into the firing chamber (in lieu of the top cartridge in the clip). This is also what Frazier testified.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2022, 05:43:38 PM »
But the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock. The bolt was in the forward position but simply with the knob handle lifted upwards:



Yes, that is my opinion also. One possibility that I believe is likely is that when JFK's head exploded it could have caused LHO to stop his reloading action in midstream. And the knob was simply left in the up position.

However, if the cutaway animation is accurate, then another possibility is that your idea of the knob being pushed up by lowering the rifle between the boxes seems more likely. This is because the cutaway animation shows the firing mechanism being cocked as a result of raising the bolt knob up. And if it is already cocked, then the amount of force required to raise the bolt knob would be much less than it would be if it was being cocked. The rifle weighs 8-pounds total. If the force needed to raise the bolt knob (on that already cocked rifle) is less than 8-pounds of force, then I think that your idea possibly exists.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #78 on: July 24, 2022, 05:43:38 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #79 on: July 24, 2022, 05:45:06 PM »
But the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock. The bolt was in the forward position but simply with the knob handle lifted upwards:



the bolt wasn't "retracted" - if by that you mean pulled back towards the stock.

Yes  ...in the Alyea photo on page 4 (James Hackerott's post) the bolt knob can be seen in the raised (Unlatched) position.) (Just like your picture)  And the rectangular portion of the bolt handle ( at the base of the bolt handle ) is in the slot
on the bridge of the receiver.  So the bolt wasn't retracted as far as I had thought, which I had thought was about 1 inch, ...but it is retracted about 1/4 inch.