The Position of the Bolt on the MC


Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: The Position of the Bolt on the MC  (Read 12578 times)

Online James Hackerott

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2022, 01:28:31 AM »
The Lost JFK Tapes DVD, screen captures.
 ;)

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2022, 01:28:31 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7193
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2022, 01:31:53 AM »
This pic from the Alyea footage shows the moment Day has turned to Fritz who is yet to reach for the bolt handle.
I believe the red arrow picks out the bolt handle in the "unlatched" position that is seen more clearly in other pictures posted:



I believe this bolt handle was in the "unlatched" position when it was picked up because it appears to be in this same position before Fritz takes out his handkerchief and reaches for the bolt handle.

I agree Dan,  Nobody touched that bolt handle from the time Day picked the carcano up FROM THE FLOOR  until Fritz slid the bolt back and the live round dropped out,......  The bolt is in the unlatched position in Alyea's film because the yokel who hid the rifle didn't know that the live cartridge had to be fed up to the bolt by the cartridge elevator pushing it up into the annular space on the face of the bolt. ( NOTE:....  If that live round had been the last cartridge in the clip the elevator would have been in contact with it, and when the three previous cartridges were fire that elevator would have scratched the live round, but there was no sign that te live round had been in contact with the elevator. )

The yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and then couldn't get the bolt closed and latched, so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film. 

Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2282
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2022, 01:41:04 AM »
I agree Dan,  Nobody touched that bolt handle from the time Day picked the carcano up FROM THE FLOOR  until Fritz slid the bolt back and the live round dropped out,......  The bolt is in the unlatched position in Alyea's film because the yokel who hid the rifle didn't know that the live cartridge had to be fed up to the bolt by the cartridge elevator pushing it up into the annular space on the face of the bolt. ( NOTE:....  If that live round had been the last cartridge in the clip the elevator would have been in contact with it, and when the three previous cartridges were fire that elevator would have scratched the live round, but there was no sign that te live round had been in contact with the elevator. )

The yokel simply dropped the live round into the chamber and then couldn't get the bolt closed and latched, so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film.

For argument's sake, let' just say there was four rounds in the clip, three had been fired, why couldn't the fourth, live round be in the firing chamber? Because the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2022, 01:41:04 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7193
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2022, 02:00:04 AM »
For argument's sake, let' just say there was four rounds in the clip, three had been fired, why couldn't the fourth, live round be in the firing chamber? Because the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

The FBI reported that one of the spent shells had been scratched by the elevator.   Of course that means that that spent shell was the last round in the clip. 

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2706
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2022, 11:26:09 AM »
Here are three views that might help.





Thanks James! Those definitely do help. The first one (where Day is picking the rifle up off the floor) is clear enough to see that I was wrong. The bolt handle does appear to me to be angled up in the unlatched position. I need to see if I can find a copy of that DVD. Thanks again!

Offline Jim Hawthorn

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2022, 03:25:31 PM »
the elevator never scratched the live round? Is that known for certain?

The FBI reported that one of the spent shells had been scratched by the elevator.   Of course that means that that spent shell was the last round in the clip.

Is it always ONLY the last round that has the possibility of being scratched?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2022, 03:25:31 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7193
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2022, 03:37:06 PM »
Is it always ONLY the last round that has the possibility of being scratched?

Is it always ONLY the last round that has the possibility of being scratched?

Yes, the last round is naturally the bottom cartridge, and it is the only cartridge the is in contact with the elevator.

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2706
Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2022, 03:57:05 PM »
I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet.

I don't want you to believe me....  I would like for you to agree with me after you've studied the illustrations.

If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.

The Alyea film show detective Day picking up the rifle BY THE LATHER SLING and handing it off to Captain Fritz, The Day holds the rifle while Fritz slides the bolt back ( He does not need to raise the bolt handle because it is not down and latched )  Many witnesses reported that the live cartridge mee fell out of the rifle and landed on the floor at Fritz feet. IOW...The live round was not EXTRACTED by the extractor, nor was it EJECTED by the ejector ....It merely FELL OUT.



Mr. EIBENBERQ. Did you make a test to determine the pattern of the cartridge- case ejection of Commission Exhibit 139?
Mr. Faaznnt. Yes, sir; I made two studies in connection with the ejection pattern-one to determine distance and one to determine the angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port.
Mr. EISENB~EQ. And did you summarize your examination by diagrams? Mr. Faazw. Yes ; I did.
Mr. EISENBEEO. Could you show us those diagrams?
Mr. Fatinm. In this diagram-
Mr. EIBENBERQ. Excuse me just a second, Mr. Frazier.
Were these diagrams prepared by you?
Mr. FBAZIER. Yes; they were-not the actual physical diagrams, but the
figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman.
Mr. EISENBEBO. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as Com-
mission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 54’7?
Mr. MCCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and
547, and were received in evidence.)
Mr. EIBENBEBQ. Could you give us the results of your tests by using these
diagrams, Mr. Frazier? k
Mr. Faazrza. Yes, sir.
In this test, Commission Exhibit 546, the diagram illustrates the positions
on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being extracted and ejected from the rifle, Commission’s Exhibit 139. In the tom nortion of Exhibit 546. the barrel was held depressed at a 45degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. Each spot marked with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle to which the cartridge case was ejected.
With the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge cases landed within an 35inch circle located 80 degrees to the right front of the rifle. That may be confusing. It was 89 degrees to the right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of 86 inches from the ejection port.
Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle.
The same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the horizontal condition.
All of the cartridge cases landed within a 47-inch circle, which was located at right angles to the ejection port, or 90 degrees from the line of sight, and at a distance 80 inches from the ejection port.



I submit that Fritz (since he was not reloading under “normal conditions in a fairly rapid manner” and the cartridge fell out at his feet) used a very light force on the bolt. See the bolded text in Frazier’s testimony above.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 03:58:31 PM by Charles Collins »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2022, 03:57:05 PM »


 

Mobile View