The Position of the Bolt on the MC

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Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2022, 02:13:08 PM »
Thank you Charles....It is an excellent cutaway of a carcano being fired ....however it is a bit fast for me....Eventhough I don't need the video to know how a carcano operates ..... Some one who knows how to stop the action could really benefit from the video. If a person could stop the bolt closing just before the handle is pushed down to latch the bolt could see that the cartridge is nearly fully inserted into the chamber.....and if that cartridge was not seated in the face of the bolt the cartridge would prevent the bolt from closing all the way and latching into the ready to fire position.


Here are six still frames that show the last bullet being loaded and the bolt being latched:


























And here is a top view showing six still frames of the extractor in action:


























The extractor appears to work similarly to both of the bolt action guns that I used to own. Have you tried manually loading a bullet into the receiver with the bolt open and letting the bolt push it into the firing chamber? I believe that Robert Frazier testified that this could be done to allow the rifle to hold a total of seven bullets.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2022, 02:13:08 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2022, 04:35:20 PM »

Here are six still frames that show the last bullet being loaded and the bolt being latched:


























And here is a top view showing six still frames of the extractor in action:


























The extractor appears to work similarly to both of the bolt action guns that I used to own. Have you tried manually loading a bullet into the receiver with the bolt open and letting the bolt push it into the firing chamber? I believe that Robert Frazier testified that this could be done to allow the rifle to hold a total of seven bullets.


Thank you for Charles.....    I never expected a LNer to post such graphic information, that verifies that the carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber.   

Referring to the 4th illustration ( from the top) shows the bolt handle in a position that is very close to the position of the bolt on the carcano in the alyea film. However it is not precisely correct..... because the bolt handle is shown AFTER it has cleared the slot in the bridge and the bolt is starting to go down to the latched and ready to fire position.   The bolt handle is about 4mm ( .157" )  further forward than the bolt handle on the  carcano in detective Day's hand in the Alyea film.

Naturally this 4mm is the distance from the front of the bolt to the rear of the cartridge in the chamber.  IOW if a cartridge is placed in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber the front of the bolt (including the extractor) will hit the rear of the cartridge and the cartridge in the chamber will prevent the bolt from traveling any further forward.

Illustration # 8 is a good representation .....#8 shows the bolt handle in precisely the correct position ( comparing it to the Alyea film)   But # 8 shows the bolt being retracted, which is irrelevant in this discussion.

As you can see (and measure) if the cartridge was not being extracted by the bolt and it was all the way, and fully in the chamber it would be impossible to  latch the bolt.

This is not easy to discuss and it can be very confusing..... but your posting of the illustrations is a great benefit in trying to explain why the bolt is in the position it is in in the Alyea film.  Thank you for posting the illustrations.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:43:55 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2022, 04:35:20 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2022, 05:08:04 PM »

Thank you for Charles.....    I never expected a LNer to post such graphic information, that verifies that the carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber.   

Referring to the 4th illustration ( from the top) shows the bolt handle in a position that is very close to the position of the bolt on the carcano in the alyea film. However it is not precisely correct..... because the bolt handle is shown AFTER it has cleared the slot in the bridge and the bolt is starting to go down to the latched and ready to fire position.   The bolt handle is about 4mm ( .157" )  further forward than the bolt handle on the  carcano in detective Day's hand in the Alyea film.

Naturally this 4mm is the distance from the front of the bolt to the rear of the cartridge in the chamber.  IOW if a cartridge is placed in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber the front of the bolt (including the extractor) will hit the rear of the cartridge and the cartridge in the chamber will prevent the bolt from traveling any further forward.

Illustration # 8 is a good representation .....#8 shows the bolt handle in precisely the correct position ( comparing it to the Alyea film)   But # 8 shows the bolt being retracted, which is irrelevant in this discussion.

As you can see (and measure) if the cartridge was not being extracted by the bolt and it was all the way, and fully in the chamber it would be impossible to  latch the bolt.

This is not easy to discuss and it can be very confusing..... but your posting of the illustrations is a great benefit in trying to explain why the bolt is in the position it is in in the Alyea film.  Thank you for posting the illustrations.


Walt, I think I understand what you are saying. However, what I am asking is: Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber? What your description describes is different in that you describe pushing the bullet into the firing chamber before trying to close the bolt.

The reason I ask this is because both of my bolt action guns had similar extractor/ejectors to the Carcano. And one of them was a single shot with no other option than to manually load each single bullet. The other one had a two-shot clip and a third shot could be loaded manually.

I donít doubt your problem with closing the bolt if a bullet is inserted by hand and pushed by hand all the way into the firing chamber. But that isnít how any bolt action guns that I have used are typically loaded. Even single shot bolt action guns.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 08:19:08 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2022, 05:08:04 PM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2022, 05:27:25 PM »
Oswald the Dolt shot-his-bolt* four times that day

1) Boom>Click-click
2) Boom>Click-click
3) Boom>Click-click

The 4th came @ the movies when he tried to shoot more cops

*shot-his-bolt: Do all within one's power; exhaust one's resources or capabilities

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2022, 05:27:25 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2022, 05:43:39 PM »

Walt, I think I understand what you are saying. However, what I am asking is: Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber? What your description describes is different in that you describe pushing the bullet into the firing chamber before trying to close the bolt.

The reason I ask this is because both of my bolt action guns had similar extractor/ejectors to the Carcano. And one of them was a single shot with no other option than to manually load each single bullet. The other one had a two-shot clip and a third shot could be loaded manually.

I donít doubt your problem with closing the bolt if a bullet is inserted by hand and pushed by hand all the way into the firing chamber. But that isnít how any bolt action guns that I have used is typically loaded. Even single shot bolt action guns.

Before I begin..... Let me thank you for your great help and your honest discussion....

Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber?

A cartridge cannot be placed in the receiver ( there is nothing to support the cartridge )   I've tried balancing the cartridge on the elevator and then slide the bolt forward and I can get the cartridge in the chamber .....The bolt handle will not go down to the latched and ready to fire position ( it stops just like the picture from the Alyea Film.

I believe that a person could manipulate the cartridge and place it on the face of the bolt but it would be very awkward because the clip of cartridges would have to be in the magazine first and that would limit the space needed to manipulate the cartridge....

The Bottom line.... It wouldn't be practical..... If the shooter simply wanted to have a seven shot rifle.    It would be much easier to simply fire the six cartridges in the clip and then reload another clip....then he would have twelve shot rifle....

Now back to the Alyea photo....I'm 100% certain that some yokel who thought the carcano could be loaded with a single cartridge simply dropped that live round into the chamber and tried to close and latch the bolt.....but he couldn't get the bolt closed so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film.....and hid the rifle by laying it on the floor beneath the pallet of books, and then he stacked boxes of books around and over it.....

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2022, 05:43:39 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2022, 07:42:55 PM »
Before I begin..... Let me thank you for your great help and your honest discussion....

Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber?

A cartridge cannot be placed in the receiver ( there is nothing to support the cartridge )   I've tried balancing the cartridge on the elevator and then slide the bolt forward and I can get the cartridge in the chamber .....The bolt handle will not go down to the latched and ready to fire position ( it stops just like the picture from the Alyea Film.

I believe that a person could manipulate the cartridge and place it on the face of the bolt but it would be very awkward because the clip of cartridges would have to be in the magazine first and that would limit the space needed to manipulate the cartridge....

The Bottom line.... It wouldn't be practical..... If the shooter simply wanted to have a seven shot rifle.    It would be much easier to simply fire the six cartridges in the clip and then reload another clip....then he would have twelve shot rifle....

Now back to the Alyea photo....I'm 100% certain that some yokel who thought the carcano could be loaded with a single cartridge simply dropped that live round into the chamber and tried to close and latch the bolt.....but he couldn't get the bolt closed so he left it just as it is seen in the Alyea film.....and hid the rifle by laying it on the floor beneath the pallet of books, and then he stacked boxes of books around and over it.....


I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet. However, more modern bolt action guns that I have experience with do not have that problem. And I couldn't imagine going to war with a rifle that had that issue.

Before you jump to your conclusions, I think we should attempt to determine the position of the bolt handle when it was first picked up. I will begin with my opinion that it appears to be latched based on this still shot of the video posted earlier in this thread.




I have drawn an arrow pointing towards what I perceive to be the bolt handle knob. Perhaps others who might be interested in this, and who might have better tools and skills than I, can try to enhance the available images for better clarity. If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 07:44:22 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2022, 07:42:55 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2022, 09:52:24 PM »

I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet. However, more modern bolt action guns that I have experience with do not have that problem. And I couldn't imagine going to war with a rifle that had that issue.

Before you jump to your conclusions, I think we should attempt to determine the position of the bolt handle when it was first picked up. I will begin with my opinion that it appears to be latched based on this still shot of the video posted earlier in this thread.




I have drawn an arrow pointing towards what I perceive to be the bolt handle knob. Perhaps others who might be interested in this, and who might have better tools and skills than I, can try to enhance the available images for better clarity. If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.

 I believe you regarding the issues loading a single bullet.

I don't want you to believe me....  I would like for you to agree with me after you've studied the illustrations.

If my interpretation is correct, then I would be of the opinion that the subsequent video clips, in which we can easily see the bolt handle, were filmed after the live round was ejected.

The Alyea film show detective Day picking up the rifle BY THE LATHER SLING and handing it off to Captain Fritz, The Day holds the rifle while Fritz slides the bolt back ( He does not need to raise the bolt handle because it is not down and latched )  Many witnesses reported that the live cartridge mee fell out of the rifle and landed on the floor at Fritz feet. IOW...The live round was not EXTRACTED by the extractor, nor was it EJECTED by the ejector ....It merely FELL OUT.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2022, 09:52:24 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2022, 10:03:35 PM »
Not exactly a high-level, meticulous conspiracy thing to do.


You're right, Jim,    But the person who left that carcano there hidden beneath the pallet of books wasn't thinking about a conspiracy.   He simply wanted a link between himself and the STAGED HOAX that made it appear that he had fired a shot AT AT JFK ...... Just as he had left the rifle in a shrub pile near General Walker's ....   He wanted the cops to find it and trace that rifle back to his PO box. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 12:50:06 AM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2022, 10:03:35 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2022, 11:21:45 PM »
Oswald the Dolt shot-his-bolt* four times that day

1) Boom>Click-click
2) Boom>Click-click
3) Boom>Click-click

The 4th came @ the movies when he tried to shoot more cops

*shot-his-bolt: Do all within one's power; exhaust one's resources or capabilities

Get outta here, Chappie.....  This thread is WAAAAAAAY over yer mental ability.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2022, 11:21:45 PM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2022, 12:20:30 AM »
This pic from the Alyea footage shows the moment Day has turned to Fritz who is yet to reach for the bolt handle.
I believe the red arrow picks out the bolt handle in the "unlatched" position that is seen more clearly in other pictures posted:



I believe this bolt handle was in the "unlatched" position when it was picked up because it appears to be in this same position before Fritz takes out his handkerchief and reaches for the bolt handle.

 

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