The Position of the Bolt on the MC

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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2022, 01:07:17 AM »
The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?


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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2022, 01:07:17 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2022, 01:44:10 AM »
The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 01:46:54 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2022, 01:44:10 AM »

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2022, 02:43:10 AM »
"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?
I say the bolt's been pulled back a cm or two because the cocking piece nut appears to extend to the end of the receiver's tail is, if not a bit further.  Just turning the bolt wouldn't bring the CP nut that far to the rear.

I've already brought up two scenarios that would easily explain the position of the bolt, and see no reason to rack my brain for more. "I'm sure there are a few other scenarios" is really just leaving space open for anyone else to chime in with their own ideas. You have certainly thrown in your own two pennies.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2022, 02:43:10 AM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2022, 02:54:07 AM »
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:





And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1

Thank you Charles....It is an excellent cutaway of a carcano being fired ....however it is a bit fast for me....Eventhough I don't need the video to know how a carcano operates ..... Some one who knows how to stop the action could really benefit from the video. If a person could stop the bolt closing just before the handle is pushed down to latch the bolt could see that the cartridge is nearly fully inserted into the chamber.....and if that cartridge was not seated in the face of the bolt the cartridge would prevent the bolt from closing all the way and latching into the ready to fire position.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2022, 02:54:07 AM »

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2022, 02:54:56 AM »
Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?
When I watch the Alyea film's sequence of the rifle's recovery, I see events in the following order:

1.) Day reaches down and picks up the rifle by the sling and lifts it up off the floor.
2.) Day turns and presents the rifle, butt up, to Fritz, who takes the rifle from Day.
3.) Then it cuts to Day holding the rifle while inspecting it. This is the scene from which your still image is taken.

The continuity between Day picking up the rifle and Fritz taking it precludes the events in 3.) from occurring between the time that Day picks up the rifle and the moment that Fritz takes hold of the weapon. So the Fritz could have opened the bolt and ejected the round between 2.) and 3.).

It all starts about 45 seconds into this version of the Alyea film:

« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:02:17 AM by Mitch Todd »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2022, 02:54:56 AM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2022, 03:28:39 AM »
Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor. (see the video that Charles posted and notice how the shells are flung away from the rifle. )

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

Day did not pick up the carcano by the WOODEN STOCK.      And He said a live round "fell on the floor".... If that live round had been seated in the face of the bolt it would have been EXTRACTED and flung away from the rifle....It would not simply have "fell on the floor"
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 03:30:54 AM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2022, 03:28:39 AM »

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2022, 04:49:16 AM »
Quote
Mr. BALL. What happened after that?
Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.
Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?
Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?
Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
It was handed right to him. Both supervisors eyeballed the crap out of the thing.
They called it what else?...a Daisy Red Rider...a slingshot? 
Fritz made fairly sure that his were the only prints that would be on the bullet huh?
Prime evidence and he couldn't even remember if he marked it?
Quote
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not....
By testimony time he had his story down good enough for government work :-\

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2022, 04:49:16 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2022, 10:26:24 AM »
When I watch the Alyea film's sequence of the rifle's recovery, I see events in the following order:

1.) Day reaches down and picks up the rifle by the sling and lifts it up off the floor.
2.) Day turns and presents the rifle, butt up, to Fritz, who takes the rifle from Day.
3.) Then it cuts to Day holding the rifle while inspecting it. This is the scene from which your still image is taken.

The continuity between Day picking up the rifle and Fritz taking it precludes the events in 3.) from occurring between the time that Day picks up the rifle and the moment that Fritz takes hold of the weapon. So the Fritz could have opened the bolt and ejected the round between 2.) and 3.).

It all starts about 45 seconds into this version of the Alyea film:


A while back I found every piece of Alyea footage I could about the discovery of the rifle and cobbled this together:


Day turns to Fritz who grabs the strap. Fritz then produces a handkerchief and appears to grab the bolt handle (or around that area) and Day immediately pulls the rifle away from him. After this Day and Fritz examine the rifle together.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2022, 10:26:24 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2022, 10:47:27 AM »
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:





And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1

Thanks Charles, that really is helpful.
In the above graphic the bolt handle is "in front" of the trigger when the bullet is loaded and fired and when the shell is ejected the bolt handle is pulled back to a position where it is "behind" the trigger.
In the grab from the Alyea footage below the trigger is picked out by the red arrow, the bolt handle by the yellow handle. It can be seen the bolt handle is "in front" of the trigger in this situation, corresponding to this moment in Charles' graphic:



It would appear that when the rifle was discovered, three bullets had been fired and the fourth, live round had been pushed into the chamber.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2022, 10:47:27 AM »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2022, 12:51:42 PM »
Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

Day did not pick up the carcano by the WOODEN STOCK.      And He said a live round "fell on the floor".... If that live round had been seated in the face of the bolt it would have been EXTRACTED and flung away from the rifle....It would not simply have "fell on the floor"

The "wooden stock."  Now where have I seen that term used to describe Oswald's rifle?

 

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