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Author Topic: The Position of the Bolt on the MC  (Read 43240 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2022, 12:59:16 PM »
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'bet the farm'
_What a coincidence. I used that term not a week ago.
  I'd never seen it used here before
  My eyebrows remain raised...


Mr. EISENBEBQ. Based on your experience with the weapon, do you think three
shots could be fired accurately within 5% seconds if no rest was utilized?
Mr. FTUAIER. That would depend on the accuracy which was necessary or
needed or which you desired. I think you could fire the shots in that length
of time, but whether you could place them, say, in a 3- or 4-inch circle without
either resting or possibly using the sling as a support-I doubt that you could
accomplish that.




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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2022, 12:59:16 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2022, 01:04:18 PM »
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.



Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2022, 01:26:43 PM »


So HOW do you load seven rounds ???


Here's a screen shot from the video posted earlier in this thread. He has just loaded a full clip (six cartridges) and has not yet closed the bolt. The way that Robert Frazier described (if I remember correctly) to load the seventh cartridge, is to place a single cartridge in the receiver (on top of the other six cartridges) and then close the bolt. That is also similar to the way I remember doing it with my bolt action gun.




The way that Robert Frazier described (if I remember correctly) to load the seventh cartridge, is to place a single cartridge in the receiver (on top of the other six cartridges) and then close the bolt.

You're right, Charles....That is the way Frazier described the loading of the seventh round, and it sounds very easy to do....

BUT .....in attempting to perform  the action it is impossible....

Here's why....  When the fully loaded six round clip is inserted into the magazine it is pushed down against the pressure  of the elevator spring which pushes the cartridges up FROM THE BOTTOM ( It takes a strong thumb to push the clip full of cartridges all the way down to the point where the clip latch catches the clip and holds it in the magazine) so that when the bolt is pushed forward the top cartridge is pushed up and into the annular area on the face of the bolt and also the rim of the cartridge is pushed up behind the EXTRACTOR.   Then the cartridge which is now married to the face of the bolt can be pushed forward and into the chamber.
When the full clip of six cartridges is loaded in the magazine THERE IS NO ROOM TO PUSH A SINGLE CARTRIDGE DOWN SO THAT IT CAN BE PUSHED UP AND INTO THE ANNULAR SPACE AND EXTRACTOR ON THE FACE OF THE BOLT.

Look at the cutaway illustration of the full clip in the rifle and you can see that there is no room to load that single cartridge from the bottom of the bolt..... And the cartridges MUST be pushed UP AND INTO THE ANNULAR SPACE AND BEHIND THAT EXTRACTOR......  IOW The cartridge MUST be married to the bolt to enable the bolt to latch closed......

Bottom Line.... Mr Frazier didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2022, 01:26:43 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2022, 01:44:33 PM »
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.





Charles, On page 2 of this thread you posted a cutaway animated illustration of the loading of a clip into a carcano....

It clearly shows that when the full clip of six rounds is inserted into the magazine there is no room to place a seventh cartridge on top of the stack of six rounds that are in the clip....So that seventh round cannot be served up into the face of the bolt ( It MUST be served up from the bottom )   The bolt will not close all the way into the ready to fire position if the cartridge is not married to the face of the bolt.....and it can't be married to the bolt unless it is fed up from  below the bolt.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2022, 01:51:06 PM »
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.




When the cartridge was examined, it was examined under a microscope.......Read what Frazier said in his testimony.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2022, 01:51:06 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2022, 01:55:36 PM »

Charles, On page 2 of this thread you posted a cutaway animated illustration of the loading of a clip into a carcano....

It clearly shows that when the full clip of six rounds is inserted into the magazine there is no room to place a seventh cartridge on top of the stack of six rounds that are in the clip....So that seventh round cannot be served up into the face of the bolt ( It MUST be served up from the bottom )   The bolt will not close all the way into the ready to fire position if the cartridge is not married to the face of the bolt.....and it can't be married to the bolt unless it is fed up from  below the bolt.


Here's a frame from the animation that clearly shows the extractor is flush with the face of the bolt (in other words there is no space between the extractor and the face of the bolt) when the bolt is fully open. So, I do not agree with your claim that the cartridge must be fed from below in order to mate up properly with the face of the bolt. Robert Frazier is an expert providing sworn testimony about this specific rifle. Why should we believe your claim and disregard his testimony?




And it certainly appears to me that there is room above the fully inserted full clip for a seventh cartridge (in both the animation and the blabbermouth guy's video).

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2022, 02:05:23 PM »
Here is a close-up screenshot, from the video posted earlier in this thread, of the elevator. It appears to me to have a wavy shape which would tend to minimize the amount of surface area which actually contacts the last cartridge in the clip. Also the surface appears to be smooth, all of which, in my opinion, would help to make the action smoother and shouldn't easily scratch the cartridge.




At the 10:53 pont of the video the man pushes a clip of cartridges into the magazine ...

NOTICE how hard he has to push to latch the clip in the magazine....   

This is important because if he tried to push a seventh round down below the bolt ....he would not be able to do it.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2022, 02:05:23 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2022, 02:16:25 PM »
At the 10:53 pont of the video the man pushes a clip of cartridges into the magazine ...

NOTICE how hard he has to push to latch the clip in the magazine....   

This is important because if he tried to push a seventh round down below the bolt ....he would not be able to do it.


I have noticed that it takes considerable force to push the clip down and get it latched. But I do not believe that it is necessary to push a seventh round down below the bolt. See the diagram I posted above that shows the extractor flush with the face of the bolt. Simply have the seventh cartridge directly above the sixth one and close the bolt. I believe that this would work.