The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Walt Cakebread]

As I understand it, if the bolt was not locked by rotating the bolt handle down, then there no way the extractor will be able to pull the round out of the chamber if the bolt is retracted.

So one question is if when the non locked bolt was retracted with the rifle in a vertical position (barrel up) would the round slide out of the chamber due to gravity, or remain in the chamber?

Certainly around would remain in the chamber if the rifle were held horizontally while the unlocked bolt is retracted yes?

As I understand it, if the bolt was not locked by rotating the bolt handle down, then there no way the extractor will be able to pull the round out of the chamber if the bolt is retracted.

It makes no difference if the bolt handle is up, or down,  ( of course the bolt cannot be retracted of the bolt is down )  If the round was fed up to the extractor by the elevator and the round was seated on the face of the bolt, then the round can be pulled from the chamber by lifting the bolt handle and  retracting the bolt .....And if the bolt wasn't pulled back far enough for the ejector to flip the cartridge out of the bolt, then the cartridge could be rechambered by pushing the bolt closed .

[Walt Cakebread]

Yes, I believe it is the same.

Ok Then we agree about that piece of paper.....Now ... Is the rifle in the same position in both photos?

A good way to find the answer is if we could see the boards of the floor beneath the rifle.

I believe the rifle is in the same spot in both photos.....

[Walt Cakebread]

Here are two images. The first one is a pertinent cropped portion of the DPD photos in which I have drawn a yellow arrow pointing to the back of the scope. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the back of the groove in the stock.





The second image is a crop of the photo of CE-139. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the end of the groove in the stock (see arrow).





The image you posted from the Alyea film simply doesn't show enough of the rifle to show the area where the back of the scope and the end of the groove in the stock are. So the answer to your question is "no".

What color is the stock on CE 139?

[Charles Collins]

Ok Then we agree about that piece of paper.....Now ... Is the rifle in the same position in both photos?

A good way to find the answer is if we could see the boards of the floor beneath the rifle.

I believe the rifle is in the same spot in both photos.....

I also believe the rifle is in the same spot in both the DPD photo and the Alyea image.

[Zeon Mason]

I just did an experiment with my K-98 Mauser rifle with the the following results:

1. After manually chambering one cartridge with the bolt left retracted (ie: fully open exposing the magazine well) the round did not slide out when the rifle was held vertically, barrel up.

2. After pushing the bolt forward without locking it down by rotating the handle down, I then retracted the bolt and found that the extractor did not  grip the ridge of the cartridge and the round stayed in the camber , even with the rifle in vertical position.

3 The round stayed in the chamber of the vertically oriented barrel uo rifle even when I tapped the butt on the floor a couple of times.

4. In order to get the round out, I had to actually push the bolt forward and  lock the  bolt fully forward by rotating the handle down fully, which apparently is the ONLY way that the extractor engages the inside of the cartridge rim. Then when I then  rotated the bolt handle counter clockwise and retracted the bolt QUICKLY  to the rear stop position, the cartridge was  pulled out and then “ejected”  (as opposed to simply “falling out.)

5. I then tried a SLOW  retraction of the bolt and found that although the cartridge was pulled out, it did NOT get ejected, nor even fall out , but remained gripped by the extractor, I had to  push the bolt forward again reseating the round in the chamber and then retract rhe bolt more quickly and with more force to cause proper ejection of the cartridge.

IIf the K98 Mauser bolt action and tolerances are similar  enough to the MC rifle bolt and extractor mechanism then my experiment demonstrates that for a cartridge to simply “ fall out” would suggest a cartridge that was NOT fully seated into the chamber, thus the bolt was never fully pushed forward enough in the 1st place.

This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.

[Charles Collins]

I just did an experiment with my K-98 Mauser rifle with the the following results:

1. After manually chambering one cartridge with the bolt left retracted (ie: fully open exposing the magazine well) the round did not slide out when the rifle was held vertically, barrel up.

2. After pushing the bolt forward without locking it down by rotating the handle down, I then retracted the bolt and found that the extractor did not  grip the ridge of the cartridge and the round stayed in the camber , even with the rifle in vertical position.

3 The round stayed in the chamber of the vertically oriented barrel uo rifle even when I tapped the butt on the floor a couple of times.

4. In order to get the round out, I had to actually push the bolt forward and  lock the  bolt fully forward by rotating the handle down fully, which apparently is the ONLY way that the extractor engages the inside of the cartridge rim. Then when I then  rotated the bolt handle counter clockwise and retracted the bolt QUICKLY  to the rear stop position, the cartridge was  pulled out and then “ejected”  (as opposed to simply “falling out.)

5. I then tried a SLOW  retraction of the bolt and found that although the cartridge was pulled out, it did NOT get ejected, nor even fall out , but remained gripped by the extractor, I had to  push the bolt forward again reseating the round in the chamber and then retract rhe bolt more quickly and with more force to cause proper ejection of the cartridge.

IIf the K98 Mauser bolt action and tolerances are similar  enough to the MC rifle bolt and extractor mechanism then my experiment demonstrates that for a cartridge to simply “ fall out” would suggest a cartridge that was NOT fully seated into the chamber, thus the bolt was never fully pushed forward enough in the 1st place.

This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.

I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

The extractor engages the cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and the very bottom portion of the bolt pushes the very top of the back of the cartridge forward until it clears the clip and is pushed up by the elevator into the receiver. Here are two of the cutaway frames that show this:


Here, the cartridge is being pushed forward by the bolt and the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.





At this point in the forward motion of the bolt, the extractor is already engaged (into the groove between the base and the body of the cartridge). And if you were to stop the forward motion of the bolt at this point and pull it backwards, the cartridge would be pulled backwards also and ejected if pulled completely back to the fully open position. In other words, the bolt does not have to be rotated down to the locked position in order for the extractor to engage the cartridge (as you indicate is the case with the Mauser).

And Robert Frazier testified under oath that C-139 will (if the bolt is opened with minimal force) not throw the shell out with force, but will let it fall down at your feet.



This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work

He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.

[Walt Cakebread]

I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

The extractor engages the cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and the very bottom portion of the bolt pushes the very top of the back of the cartridge forward until it clears the clip and is pushed up by the elevator into the receiver. Here are two of the cutaway frames that show this:


Here, the cartridge is being pushed forward by the bolt and the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.





At this point in the forward motion of the bolt, the extractor is already engaged (into the groove between the base and the body of the cartridge). And if you were to stop the forward motion of the bolt at this point and pull it backwards, the cartridge would be pulled backwards also and ejected if pulled completely back to the fully open position. In other words, the bolt does not have to be rotated down to the locked position in order for the extractor to engage the cartridge (as you indicate is the case with the Mauser).

And Robert Frazier testified under oath that C-139 will (if the bolt is opened with minimal force) not throw the shell out with force, but will let it fall down at your feet.



This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work

He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.

I am not familiar with the Mauser rifle. But here is my understanding of how the Carcano extractor engages with the cartridge. I am sure Walt will correct me if I am wrong.

No other rifle should be used to attempt to verify the mechanical operation of the mannlicher carcano.

And I believe that you understand how the carcano operates , Charles..... Though you're not precisely correct in describing how the cartridge is chambered.... 

"the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge."

the elevator is pushing the cartridge upwards (AND INTO THE ANNULAR SPACE ON THE FRONT OF THE BOLT ) such that the extractor engages the cartridge in the groove between the base of the cartridge and the body of the cartridge.





If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired


pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired

Yes, and this is just one of the indicators that reveal that the rifle was never at that sixth floor window...It was hidden beneath the boxes of books BEFORE the shooting.


He might simply have been smart enough to know that hiding the rifle would likely buy him more time to get out of town (before they found it and connected it to him). After he was arrested I think he was surprised how fast they were still able to do just that.

Yes, Hiding the rifle would have bought him time ....and that was the plan, and it probably would have been hours or possible a day if the double crossers who played Lee for a sucker, by setting him up to be framed for murdering JFK....when they shot President Kennedy. 

Lee thought that he was participating in a hoax in which it would appear that he had shot  AT AT  JFK.
And if JFK had not been killed there would have been no mad rush to find the killer.   He hid that rifle before the motorcade arrived.   If the cops had been looking for a person who had fired a gun as the president passed by....they wouldn't have been in a mad rush to find that person and his gun.  But the killers foiled Lee's plan of fleeing to Cuba after the cops reported that someone had shot at JFK from the TSBD.   They learned this after the spent shells, and the rifle were found by the employees who would have been working on the sixth floor that afternoon.   Lee thought that he would have been in Mexico by
 the time the shells and rifle were found.

[Walt Cakebread]

I just did an experiment with my K-98 Mauser rifle with the the following results:

1. After manually chambering one cartridge with the bolt left retracted (ie: fully open exposing the magazine well) the round did not slide out when the rifle was held vertically, barrel up.

2. After pushing the bolt forward without locking it down by rotating the handle down, I then retracted the bolt and found that the extractor did not  grip the ridge of the cartridge and the round stayed in the camber , even with the rifle in vertical position.

3 The round stayed in the chamber of the vertically oriented barrel uo rifle even when I tapped the butt on the floor a couple of times.

4. In order to get the round out, I had to actually push the bolt forward and  lock the  bolt fully forward by rotating the handle down fully, which apparently is the ONLY way that the extractor engages the inside of the cartridge rim. Then when I then  rotated the bolt handle counter clockwise and retracted the bolt QUICKLY  to the rear stop position, the cartridge was  pulled out and then “ejected”  (as opposed to simply “falling out.)

5. I then tried a SLOW  retraction of the bolt and found that although the cartridge was pulled out, it did NOT get ejected, nor even fall out , but remained gripped by the extractor, I had to  push the bolt forward again reseating the round in the chamber and then retract rhe bolt more quickly and with more force to cause proper ejection of the cartridge.

IIf the K98 Mauser bolt action and tolerances are similar  enough to the MC rifle bolt and extractor mechanism then my experiment demonstrates that for a cartridge to simply “ fall out” would suggest a cartridge that was NOT fully seated into the chamber, thus the bolt was never fully pushed forward enough in the 1st place.

This therefore is another anomaly that seems to negate LNs reason for Oswald loading one more round after firing the 3rd shot and carring the rifle to the the staircase because he might have to shoot someone who was inadvertently coming to the 6 th floors.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot, then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.

If the MC round was never loaded by operation of the bolt properly and locking the bolt fully seating the cartridge in the chamber after the 3rd shot,
( the Carcano is automatically loaded and ready to fire a fresh cartridge when the bolt is pushed forward and latched, after extracting the spent shell from the previous cartridge. It's simply a reflex reaction ...when the shooter ejects the spent shell he instinctively closes and latches the bolt, and when he does the rifle is ready to fire) then it seems pointless for Oswald or other person to have carried the rifle across 180 ft of floor being in LOS of anyone who might come up the staircase, since the rifle could not have been immediately fired and would require pushing the bolt completely forward enough seat the cartridge snugly and the bolt handle rotated to lock the bolt so that the trigger mechanism would be engaged and the firing pin would work.