The Position of the Bolt on the MC

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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #220 on: July 29, 2022, 11:48:56 PM »
Noticed this in Day's WC testimony:

"When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'"

Decided to check it out. This is a close up pic of CE575:



It appears to be stamped 8MI 952 (could be SMI) but Day's mistake can be understood.
However, I went back to the picture posted by Jim of all the evidence on the table and took a close up of the clip:



Is it my imagination but I can't see the 952 on the right hand side of the clip.
Also, there seems to be something next to 8MI that looks like the number 18 in a circle.



Is it just my tired old eyes or am I missing something?

LATER EDIT: It must be my tired old eyes - just noticed it doesn't have 8MI stamped on Jim's clip, it has 81M.
And this doesn't seem to be stamped on, it looks written on.
The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip....

I have a brass clip and a Blue steel clip ......The two clips look a bit different when compared side by side....   The steel of the blue steel clip is stamped more clearly than the brass clip... ( I'm referring to the grooves at the sides of the clips ( the grooves that hold the rim of the cartridge when the cartridge is in the clip )  The steel of the steel clip is thinner than the metal of the brass clip and since brass is a soft metal, it can't be stamped as crisply as the steel clip.   

My brass clip is stamped SMI ( SOCIETA METALLURGICA ITALIANA ) on the left side  of the clip and there is a five point star follwed by the numerals 36 on the right side ....  I believe that means the clip was manufactured in Italy in 1936.

The Blue steel clip is stamped SMI on the left side and there is a five oint star followed by the number 39 on the right side. I believe that the blue steel clip was made in Italy in 1939. 

The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip and it was manufactured in Italy in 1952......

If that's true then the clip in the photo definitely is NOT the clip that was in the rifle when Day was examining the rifle.   

I'm not guessing about the stamping on the clips...because the cardboard box that they came in was that small box of 24 cartridges that was issued to the Italian soldiers.   I have four of those cardboard boxes and it says right on the box " Societa Metallurgica Italiana" it is also marked "fornaci di Baga" which I guess  might be the name of the person who packaged the loaded clips.   It is also stamped SMI 1936.

I large letters it is stamped "A. Pallottola" then smaller letters "Armi mo 91E" mitragliatrici, And then in large letters...SOLENITE    Anybody who understands Italian can tell us what all that means...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 02:15:44 AM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #220 on: July 29, 2022, 11:48:56 PM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #221 on: July 30, 2022, 12:03:00 AM »
The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip....

I have a brass clip and a Blue steel clip ......The two clips look a bit different when compared side by side....   The steel of the blue steel clip is stamped more clearly than the brass clip... ( I'm referring to the grooves at the sides of the clips ( the grooves that hold the rim of the cartridge when the cartridge is in the clip )  The steel of the steel clip is thinner than the metal of the brass clip and since brass is a soft metal, it can't be stamped as crisply as the steel clip.   

My brass clip is stamped SMI ( SOCIETA METALLURGICA ITALIANA ) on the left side  of the clip and there is a five point star follwed by the numerals 36 on the right side ....  I believe that means the clip was manufactured in Italy in 1936.

The Blue steel clip is stamped SMI on the left side and there is a five oint star followed by the number 39 on the right side. I believe that the blue steeclip was made in Italy in 1939. 

The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip and it was manufactured in Italy in 1952......

If that's true then the clip in the photo definitely is NOT the clip that was in the rifle when Day was examining the rifle.

I've checked out a lot of these brass clips online. They all have SMI stamped on one side and a three digit number on the other.
The clip on the evidence table Jim posted doesn't have SMI on it, it has SIM and there are no numbers on the other side. This is not the clip CE575.

I'm trying to find out when the pic Jim posted was taken and if there are any other pics including the clip (FBI or DPD).
At the moment this looks like a clear example of tampering with evidence but it needs to be checked more thoroughly.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #221 on: July 30, 2022, 12:03:00 AM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #222 on: July 30, 2022, 12:27:22 AM »
I've checked out a lot of these brass clips online. They all have SMI stamped on one side and a three digit number on the other.
The clip on the evidence table Jim posted doesn't have SMI on it, it has SIM and there are no numbers on the other side. This is not the clip CE575.

I'm trying to find out when the pic Jim posted was taken and if there are any other pics including the clip (FBI or DPD).
At the moment this looks like a clear example of tampering with evidence but it needs to be checked more thoroughly.

I have many clips dating back to 1923....... but I believe the newest clip I have is a steel clip made in 1939.   I believe they Italians continued to manufacture the clips well into the 1950's and they made them out of steel.... If a clip is stamped "52" i believe that clip would be made of steel, in 1952.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #222 on: July 30, 2022, 12:27:22 AM »

Offline Jim Hawthorn

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #223 on: July 30, 2022, 08:04:25 AM »
Where is this pic from Jim, because the clip on the table is not the same as the clip in evidence for the WC [CE575]?

I found it here:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1967/06/10/the-buffs
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 08:10:20 AM by Jim Hawthorn »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #223 on: July 30, 2022, 08:04:25 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #224 on: July 30, 2022, 11:14:52 AM »
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg



https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

The piece of white paper on the floor beneath the stock of the rifle is different in the two photos....and the butt of the rifle is directly below the corner of the cardboard box above it.....while in the other photo the corner of that box is about half wat up the stock ( about seven inches back from the rear of the CLOSED bolt.


No, the camera angle is different. The paper is the same. The rifle hasnít moved. And I donít believe that the bolt is visible.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #224 on: July 30, 2022, 11:14:52 AM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #225 on: July 30, 2022, 01:36:29 PM »

No, the camera angle is different. The paper is the same. The rifle hasnít moved. And I donít believe that the bolt is visible.

So we disagree once more.... Nothing new or unusual about that....

Do you believe the scope is visible, and if so, how much of the scope can be seen?

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #225 on: July 30, 2022, 01:36:29 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #226 on: July 30, 2022, 01:46:31 PM »
I found it here:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1967/06/10/the-buffs

Jim I don't believe the display of the items is authentic....   Some of those items were /are in the national archives  ( the cartridges for example) and they would not be displayed on a display board....

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #226 on: July 30, 2022, 01:46:31 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #227 on: July 30, 2022, 03:03:42 PM »

No, the camera angle is different. The paper is the same. The rifle hasnít moved. And I donít believe that the bolt is visible.

 the camera angle is different.

Yes , that's obvious..... But when aligning the vertical edge of the box above the rifle it's obvious that the rifle is not in the same place in both photos.  The reason I posted the link to the other photo was so a viewer could compare the two photos easily.  The photo with Fritz's leg in it shows the corner of the vertical edge of the box is aligned with the metal butt plate of the rifle on the floor.  IOW...If a plumb bob was hung from the top SW corner of that box...... The bob would strike the floor near the butt plate of the rifle.  If the same exercise was performed on the other photo ( No leg in the photo)  the bob would strike the floor about 4 inches forward of the butt plate.  Obviously the rifle is not in the same place in both photos.



« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 03:17:34 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #227 on: July 30, 2022, 03:03:42 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #228 on: July 30, 2022, 03:49:17 PM »
So we disagree once more.... Nothing new or unusual about that....

Do you believe the scope is visible, and if so, how much of the scope can be seen?


Here are two images. The first one is a pertinent cropped portion of the DPD photos in which I have drawn a yellow arrow pointing to the back of the scope. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the back of the groove in the stock.





The second image is a crop of the photo of CE-139. Notice that the back of the scope is almost directly above the end of the groove in the stock (see arrow).





The image you posted from the Alyea film simply doesn't show enough of the rifle to show the area where the back of the scope and the end of the groove in the stock are. So the answer to your question is "no".

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #228 on: July 30, 2022, 03:49:17 PM »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #229 on: July 30, 2022, 04:03:23 PM »
As I understand it, if the bolt was not locked by rotating the bolt handle down, then there no way the extractor will be able to pull the round out of the chamber if the bolt is retracted.

So one question is if when the non locked bolt was retracted with the rifle in a vertical position (barrel up) would the round slide out of the chamber due to gravity, or remain in the chamber?

Certainly around would remain in the chamber if the rifle were held horizontally while the unlocked bolt is retracted yes?

 

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