The Position of the Bolt on the MC


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Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #208 on: July 29, 2022, 08:26:59 PM »
It can't be both....  He was filmed grabbing it by the leather strap....and he couldn't have reached that strap if the rifle was jammed between the boxes of books...

At one point ( somewhere in his statements )... Lt Day says that he picked the rifle up by the wooden stock....But the film shows him holding it up by the leather strap.    It's obvious that he knew that he would have had to grab the wooden stock if the rifle was jammed between boxes of books.....But the Alyea film shows us clearly that he DID NOT grab the rifle by the wooden stock.


It wasn't "jammed". There is room to lay the rifle down flat by simply rotating it on it's long axis. See below for a link to CE 718. There is space on the floor between the rifle and the row of boxes to the north of the rifle. Adequate floor space is available adjacent to the butt end of the rifle (more than enough space to reach down and grab the sling). It appears to me that the rifle is leaning up against the boxes to the south of the rifle. And two boxes in the second level have been merely pushed over top of the rifle and appear to be cantilevered or perhaps touching the boxes to the south of the rifle.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #208 on: July 29, 2022, 08:26:59 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #209 on: July 29, 2022, 09:07:23 PM »

It wasn't "jammed". There is room to lay the rifle down flat by simply rotating it on it's long axis. See below for a link to CE 718. There is space on the floor between the rifle and the row of boxes to the north of the rifle. Adequate floor space is available adjacent to the butt end of the rifle (more than enough space to reach down and grab the sling). It appears to me that the rifle is leaning up against the boxes to the south of the rifle. And two boxes in the second level have been merely pushed over top of the rifle and appear to be cantilevered or perhaps touching the boxes to the south of the rifle.

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg



https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

The piece of white paper on the floor beneath the stock of the rifle is different in the two photos....and the butt of the rifle is directly below the corner of the cardboard box above it.....while in the other photo the corner of that box is about half wat up the stock ( about seven inches back from the rear of the CLOSED bolt.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 09:16:37 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #210 on: July 29, 2022, 09:17:39 PM »
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg



https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

Thanks, that confirms that there is adequate space like I said earlier. But it is difficult to say what is holding the rifle in the upright position.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #210 on: July 29, 2022, 09:17:39 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #211 on: July 29, 2022, 09:30:03 PM »

If that were the case the bolt would be fully retracted, this seems obvious.

Not if either Fritz or Day then pushed it forward, this seems obvious.


The movement of pushing the bolt forward is quick and fluid, taking just a fraction of a second. The idea the shooter stopped halfway through this automatic motion is a non-starter.

You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?


There is a slim possibility the bolt handle could be fully pushed up by a box but the important thing is that the bolt is also pushed back, highly unlikely in this proposed scenario.

No, the important thing is that there is no easy way of knowing whether or not the bolt is also pushed back. Again, the image you are relying on was taken after Fritz ejected the live round.



Day does not examine the rifle for prints before picking it up. This seems made up.

Day testified that he first examined the rifle and determined the wooden stock was too rough to show fingerprints and looked at the knob with his glass before he picked it up. The rifle appears to be laying flat on the floor at the beginning of the Alyea film segment in which Day picks it up. How does it get to be laying flat on the floor, did Day manipulate it into that position while making these examinations? Just because this isn't on film doesn't mean it didn't happen.



I posted this video earlier in the thread. It is basically a guy firing a Carcano. After firing, the action of ejecting then slamming the bolt forward is a quick, fluid, automatic, decisive action that takes a fraction of a second. It is also a most important action, loading the bullet for the next shot. The idea of freezing during this action seems unlikely.

Does the guy in the video blow anyone's brains out? I propose that the shock of seeing that happen and the realization that no more shots are needed might just cause someone to stop in mid stream. Whether or not you think it is likely matters not a bit to me. It is still a possibility no matter how unlikely anyone might think it to be.



What I will say is that I don't believe the ejection of the live round is shown in the available Alyea footage. At no point does either man retrieve the live round from the floor or make any move resembling that.


Day lifts the rifle up off the floor and presents it to Fritz. Fritz is seen grabbing the sling with his left hand and looking towards the bolt. Then both Day and Fritz simultaneously look towards the floor as the segment ends. This indicates to me that the live round was ejected.

Either Alyea stopped the camera at that point and restarted it for the next segment, or the remainder of that segment was edited out at some point. This next segment shows that Alyea has moved to a different position and Day is examining the rifle with Fritz and his hanky in the background (this is the segment that I believe your image is taken from). We have no way of knowing what was done to the rifle between those two segments. The only segment that we can be sure that the live round was still in the rifle is the segment in which Day lifts it off the floor and presents it to Fritz for the ejection of the live round.

Mr. DAY. The rifle was resting on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time?
Mr. DAY. Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?

Your argument being the shooter was so shocked by doing exactly what he was trying to do he froze.
Hmmmm....

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #212 on: July 29, 2022, 09:44:15 PM »
You may not believe that it is very likely. However, you didn't just blow JFK's brains out and see it in your 4X scope, now did you?

Your argument being the shooter was so shocked by doing exactly what he was trying to do he froze.
Hmmmm....


There are some things in life that, even though you think you are prepared for them, they still shock you. I canít imagine wanting to kill anyone. But I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #213 on: July 29, 2022, 09:55:04 PM »
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg



https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce718.jpg

The piece of white paper on the floor beneath the stock of the rifle is different in the two photos....and the butt of the rifle is directly below the corner of the cardboard box above it.....while in the other photo the corner of that box is about half wat up the stock ( about seven inches back from the rear of the CLOSED bolt.

Referring to the photos taken looking down toward a rifle jammed between boxes of books  ( One of them has a man's leg in the photo ) Can anybody see the scope which was mounted on the rifle?....   The rear of the scope aligned with the rear of the trigger guard.....So if you can see the scope you should also see the rear of the bolt just to the right and below the rear end of the scope.   I can't see the rear of the bolt in either photo....

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #213 on: July 29, 2022, 09:55:04 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #214 on: July 29, 2022, 10:01:40 PM »

There are some things in life that, even though you think you are prepared for them, they still shock you. I canít imagine wanting to kill anyone. But I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.

I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.

How could Lee have seen that from the 1st floor lunchroom?

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #215 on: July 29, 2022, 10:09:14 PM »
Noticed this in Day's WC testimony:

"When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'"

Decided to check it out. This is a close up pic of CE575:



It appears to be stamped 8MI 952 (could be SMI) but Day's mistake can be understood.
However, I went back to the picture posted by Jim of all the evidence on the table and took a close up of the clip:



Is it my imagination but I can't see the 952 on the right hand side of the clip.
Also, there seems to be something next to 8MI that looks like the number 18 in a circle.



Is it just my tired old eyes or am I missing something?

LATER EDIT: It must be my tired old eyes - just noticed it doesn't have 8MI stamped on Jim's clip, it has 81M.
And this doesn't seem to be stamped on, it looks written on.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 10:41:57 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #215 on: July 29, 2022, 10:09:14 PM »


 

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