The Position of the Bolt on the MC


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Author Topic: The Position of the Bolt on the MC  (Read 13123 times)

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2022, 04:49:16 AM »
Quote
Mr. BALL. What happened after that?
Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.
Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?
Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?
Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?
Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.
It was handed right to him. Both supervisors eyeballed the crap out of the thing.
They called it what else?...a Daisy Red Rider...a slingshot? 
Fritz made fairly sure that his were the only prints that would be on the bullet huh?
Prime evidence and he couldn't even remember if he marked it?
Quote
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not....
By testimony time he had his story down good enough for government work :-\

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2022, 04:49:16 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2022, 10:26:24 AM »
When I watch the Alyea film's sequence of the rifle's recovery, I see events in the following order:

1.) Day reaches down and picks up the rifle by the sling and lifts it up off the floor.
2.) Day turns and presents the rifle, butt up, to Fritz, who takes the rifle from Day.
3.) Then it cuts to Day holding the rifle while inspecting it. This is the scene from which your still image is taken.

The continuity between Day picking up the rifle and Fritz taking it precludes the events in 3.) from occurring between the time that Day picks up the rifle and the moment that Fritz takes hold of the weapon. So the Fritz could have opened the bolt and ejected the round between 2.) and 3.).

It all starts about 45 seconds into this version of the Alyea film:


A while back I found every piece of Alyea footage I could about the discovery of the rifle and cobbled this together:


Day turns to Fritz who grabs the strap. Fritz then produces a handkerchief and appears to grab the bolt handle (or around that area) and Day immediately pulls the rifle away from him. After this Day and Fritz examine the rifle together.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2022, 10:47:27 AM »
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:





And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1

Thanks Charles, that really is helpful.
In the above graphic the bolt handle is "in front" of the trigger when the bullet is loaded and fired and when the shell is ejected the bolt handle is pulled back to a position where it is "behind" the trigger.
In the grab from the Alyea footage below the trigger is picked out by the red arrow, the bolt handle by the yellow handle. It can be seen the bolt handle is "in front" of the trigger in this situation, corresponding to this moment in Charles' graphic:



It would appear that when the rifle was discovered, three bullets had been fired and the fourth, live round had been pushed into the chamber.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2022, 10:47:27 AM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2022, 12:51:42 PM »
Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

Day did not pick up the carcano by the WOODEN STOCK.      And He said a live round "fell on the floor".... If that live round had been seated in the face of the bolt it would have been EXTRACTED and flung away from the rifle....It would not simply have "fell on the floor"

The "wooden stock."  Now where have I seen that term used to describe Oswald's rifle?

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2022, 02:13:08 PM »
Thank you Charles....It is an excellent cutaway of a carcano being fired ....however it is a bit fast for me....Eventhough I don't need the video to know how a carcano operates ..... Some one who knows how to stop the action could really benefit from the video. If a person could stop the bolt closing just before the handle is pushed down to latch the bolt could see that the cartridge is nearly fully inserted into the chamber.....and if that cartridge was not seated in the face of the bolt the cartridge would prevent the bolt from closing all the way and latching into the ready to fire position.


Here are six still frames that show the last bullet being loaded and the bolt being latched:


























And here is a top view showing six still frames of the extractor in action:


























The extractor appears to work similarly to both of the bolt action guns that I used to own. Have you tried manually loading a bullet into the receiver with the bolt open and letting the bolt push it into the firing chamber? I believe that Robert Frazier testified that this could be done to allow the rifle to hold a total of seven bullets.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2022, 04:35:20 PM »

Here are six still frames that show the last bullet being loaded and the bolt being latched:


























And here is a top view showing six still frames of the extractor in action:


























The extractor appears to work similarly to both of the bolt action guns that I used to own. Have you tried manually loading a bullet into the receiver with the bolt open and letting the bolt push it into the firing chamber? I believe that Robert Frazier testified that this could be done to allow the rifle to hold a total of seven bullets.


Thank you for Charles.....    I never expected a LNer to post such graphic information, that verifies that the carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber.   

Referring to the 4th illustration ( from the top) shows the bolt handle in a position that is very close to the position of the bolt on the carcano in the alyea film. However it is not precisely correct..... because the bolt handle is shown AFTER it has cleared the slot in the bridge and the bolt is starting to go down to the latched and ready to fire position.   The bolt handle is about 4mm ( .157" )  further forward than the bolt handle on the  carcano in detective Day's hand in the Alyea film.

Naturally this 4mm is the distance from the front of the bolt to the rear of the cartridge in the chamber.  IOW if a cartridge is placed in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber the front of the bolt (including the extractor) will hit the rear of the cartridge and the cartridge in the chamber will prevent the bolt from traveling any further forward.

Illustration # 8 is a good representation .....#8 shows the bolt handle in precisely the correct position ( comparing it to the Alyea film)   But # 8 shows the bolt being retracted, which is irrelevant in this discussion.

As you can see (and measure) if the cartridge was not being extracted by the bolt and it was all the way, and fully in the chamber it would be impossible to  latch the bolt.

This is not easy to discuss and it can be very confusing..... but your posting of the illustrations is a great benefit in trying to explain why the bolt is in the position it is in in the Alyea film.  Thank you for posting the illustrations.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:43:55 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2022, 04:35:20 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2022, 05:08:04 PM »

Thank you for Charles.....    I never expected a LNer to post such graphic information, that verifies that the carcano cannot be loaded by simply dropping a cartridge into the chamber.   

Referring to the 4th illustration ( from the top) shows the bolt handle in a position that is very close to the position of the bolt on the carcano in the alyea film. However it is not precisely correct..... because the bolt handle is shown AFTER it has cleared the slot in the bridge and the bolt is starting to go down to the latched and ready to fire position.   The bolt handle is about 4mm ( .157" )  further forward than the bolt handle on the  carcano in detective Day's hand in the Alyea film.

Naturally this 4mm is the distance from the front of the bolt to the rear of the cartridge in the chamber.  IOW if a cartridge is placed in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber the front of the bolt (including the extractor) will hit the rear of the cartridge and the cartridge in the chamber will prevent the bolt from traveling any further forward.

Illustration # 8 is a good representation .....#8 shows the bolt handle in precisely the correct position ( comparing it to the Alyea film)   But # 8 shows the bolt being retracted, which is irrelevant in this discussion.

As you can see (and measure) if the cartridge was not being extracted by the bolt and it was all the way, and fully in the chamber it would be impossible to  latch the bolt.

This is not easy to discuss and it can be very confusing..... but your posting of the illustrations is a great benefit in trying to explain why the bolt is in the position it is in in the Alyea film.  Thank you for posting the illustrations.


Walt, I think I understand what you are saying. However, what I am asking is: Have you tried placing the bullet into the receiver (in much the same position that a bullet just having been elevated out of the clip would be) with the bolt fully open and letting the bolt itself push the bullet into the firing chamber? What your description describes is different in that you describe pushing the bullet into the firing chamber before trying to close the bolt.

The reason I ask this is because both of my bolt action guns had similar extractor/ejectors to the Carcano. And one of them was a single shot with no other option than to manually load each single bullet. The other one had a two-shot clip and a third shot could be loaded manually.

I donít doubt your problem with closing the bolt if a bullet is inserted by hand and pushed by hand all the way into the firing chamber. But that isnít how any bolt action guns that I have used are typically loaded. Even single shot bolt action guns.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 08:19:08 PM by Charles Collins »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2022, 05:27:25 PM »
Oswald the Dolt shot-his-bolt* four times that day

1) Boom>Click-click
2) Boom>Click-click
3) Boom>Click-click

The 4th came @ the movies when he tried to shoot more cops

*shot-his-bolt: Do all within one's power; exhaust one's resources or capabilities

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2022, 05:27:25 PM »


 

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