CE 833


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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2022, 08:36:18 PM »

I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.

Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.

TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63.  LOL!

So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??   She had copied the text and gave it to Hosty.....

You certainly are a naivete, and gullible sucker.   

The reason that Hosty had called on Ruth Paine is because the FBI had lost track of Lee Oswald in Mexico City and they were trying to find him again.  They knew that Marina was living in Ruth Paine's House in Irving, but they couldn't find Lee......  When Hosty talked to Ruth Paine he told her to try to find out where Lee Oswald  was living.   So when Lee came to Irving she tried to find out where he was staying so she could INFORM the FBI.   (That's what informers do )



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Re: CE 833
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2022, 08:36:18 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2022, 08:55:45 PM »
Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63.  LOL!

So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??   She had copied the text and gave it to Hosty.....

You certainly are a naivete, and gullible sucker.   

The reason that Hosty had called on Ruth Paine is because the FBI had lost track of Lee Oswald in Mexico City and they were trying to find him again.  They knew that Marina was living in Ruth Paine's House in Irving, but they couldn't find Lee......  When Hosty talked to Ruth Paine he told her to try to find out where Lee Oswald  was living.   So when Lee came to Irving she tried to find out where he was staying so she could INFORM the FBI.   (That's what informers do )


So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??

Yes, this is what she has said. And Hosty confirmed it in his book. Ruth is still around. You would either need to ask her why, or see if you can find something in the records regarding what she has said about her reasoning….

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2022, 10:29:00 PM »
The McCone memo in Reply #15 does not implicate the CIA in the assassination.
It would however implicate the CIA in the cover up.
Memorandums that were classified Top Secret most likely never saw the light of day.
Some documents were marked Secret for no apparent reason at all [like Mrs Roberts '1026 Beckley Oswald receipt']
Some goof ups were made accidentally available [like https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/jfk-assassination-files/jfk-files-j-edgar-hoover-said-public-must-believe-lee-n814881 ]
Do we actually think that Johnson/Hoover want that to be revealed?

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2022, 10:29:00 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2022, 10:57:03 PM »

So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??

Yes, this is what she has said. And Hosty confirmed it in his book. Ruth is still around. You would either need to ask her why, or see if you can find something in the records regarding what she has said about her reasoning….
I don't know how we got on to Ruth Paine here but it looks as though Mrs Paine did go out of her way to dig up stuff on Oswald and the 'Mexico trip'. -----
Quote
Mrs. PAINE - They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.
She didn't make a note on her calendar?
Quote
Mr. JENNER - Was that the first time?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things, that had happened.
Mr. JENNER - All right, give us them in sequence, please.
Mrs. PAINE - One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.
So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.
Mr. JENNER - It was a what?
Mrs. PAINE - It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an, FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.
My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.
Mr. JENNER - Was it inscribed on the bracelet?
Mrs. PAINE - It was inscribed, the name Marina.
"English money"?
"Buy tickets for bull fight" .... :D
None of these items were produced in evidence [at least that I've seen]
Once again...Marina played along---sort of.
Her 'bracelet' was too small and that offended her [she stated]
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 11:30:10 PM by Jerry Freeman »

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2022, 04:00:46 PM »
The McCone memo in Reply #15 ....
Third paragraph mentions Hoover's aversion to the release of a memo from Warren De Brueys [N.O. FBI]
Which is probably--- https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32197130.pdf
Was also classified confidential.
Brings up one curious thought...If Oswald was so gung ho about the Cuban plight...Why didn't he maintain his Fair Play for Cuba activity in earnest when he resided in Dallas during '63?

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2022, 08:13:29 PM »

I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.

Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.

TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.

OMG!..... You're now citing "Mrs Paine's Garage!!    Unfreaking believable!

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2022, 08:13:29 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2022, 10:53:20 PM »
This is an interesting passage in the appendix of “Mrs. Paine’s Garage”. It says a lot about who Ruth Paine is.


Shortly after returning home from her appearance before Jim Garrison’s grand jury, Ruth wrote the New Orleans DA this letter (reproduced here exactly as originally written):

 1201 Woodleigh
 Irving, Texas 75060
 April 20, 1968


Mr. Jim Garrison
District Attorney of Orleans Parish
Criminal Courts Building
2700 Tulane Avenue
New Orleans, Louisiana

Dear Jim Garrison:

 I was much moved by the two days just spent in New Orleans. I had had no personal knowledge of you and only the most fragmentary and inaccurate information on the nature of your investigation of conspiracy. I was glad to discover that there are some fundamental ways in which I agree with the importance of your pursuit of information regarding a possible conspiracy. Most basic is the conviction that if our form of society is to survive we must create checks and balances on the burgeoning clandestine wing of our government called the CIA. (Or close it down.) Your charges are so sweeping and major that it would be national folly not to pursue the issue to see where truth lies. There can be no harm in such pursuit, it seems to me, unless innocent people suffer markedly as a result of it. The harm in our not pursuing truth regarding the questions you raise could be great indeed.

I was impressed, as many must be, by the sheer force of your personality. It would seem in the nature of things that people who agree with you would gather to you, and those who disagree would simply turn away. It has occurred to me that if I can be helpful to your search it is as a person who might raise doubts about your conclusions and data from a position basically sympathetic to your objectives. You don’t have many “middle-ground” people around you and are not likely to have. It is possible that this sort of “check and balance” on the probe itself would not be of interest to you, but my guess is that it would be.

If there are ways I can help I shall be glad. I was struck by your passionate concern for Man, and by the intense grief you feel over the loss of President Kennedy. I, too, feel that loss acutely. He was a most remarkable person, and extremely valuable to our country. Besides his charm and brilliance as a man he also was a president inoculated by the experience of the Bay of Pigs. He had taken the measure of the “expert advice” of generals (and the CIA) and had found it wanting. He was a man prepared to do his own thinking in a framework of the highest regard for man, for life and for civilization. For myself, I have given up wondering when the sharp sting of my grief over his loss will wane. I have concluded it never shall, and in that I found you kindred.

 With highest regards, /s/

Ruth Mrs. Michael R. Paine



The respectful tone and cooperative manner here may seem to contradict the alarm that Ruth recalls experiencing in New Orleans (see pp. 130–133). But amidst the letter’s apparent deference (wise behavior for anyone around this particular prosecutor), Ruth indicates her awareness of the “sweeping” nature of Garrison’s charges and expresses a concern that “innocent people” may suffer. (Most citizens addressing a district attorney might take it for granted that he was trying not to trample over the innocent. Ruth seems to realize that this one needs to be reminded of that.) She tells Garrison, however delicately, that he is surrounded by yes-men—clearly the impression she got from visiting his office. She is offering to serve as a reality check to this man whose “sheer force of…personality” had, for sure, made an impression. Ruth’s negative view of the CIA is neither surprising nor terribly significant. In thinking about the agency, she had gone down the same road millions of liberals had found themselves traveling between ’63 and ’68; the dismay had nothing to do with her enmeshment in the assassination or any real expectation that the CIA would prove to have been involved in that crime. Ruth’s expression of agreement about the need for unflinching investigation of the president’s murder is consistent with the opinion she had held since the day it occurred. It’s important, above all, to remember that Ruth Paine was ultimately a thorn in Garrison’s side: less than a year after writing this letter she testified as a defense witness for Clay Shaw. Indeed, this letter resides amongst the papers of Edward Wegmann, Shaw’s attorney, in the National Archives. I am grateful to Patricia Lambert for bringing it to my attention.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 11:08:23 PM by Charles Collins »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2022, 08:58:43 PM »
Of all the people who have been falsely accused and persecuted by CTers as being part of a conspiracy to kill the president, I feel most badly for Ruth Paine who became the poster person for "no good deed goes unpunished."  It's also perplexing how quickly Marina Oswald turned on her after accepting her charity and favors for many months.  A very shameful act.  A lot of people owe Ruth Paine a big apology. 

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2022, 08:58:43 PM »


 

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