CE 833

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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2022, 09:06:56 PM »
Comments welcome-----
 
Oswald-CIA01b8" border="0

Information that was withheld from the Warren Commission, the press, and the American people.
You can bet your butt that the Soviets had it  :-\
Of course...the lone gunman guys will claim it's a fake.


Wow!....This is worth repeating.... Thanks, Jerry
Oswald-CIA01b8" border="0

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2022, 09:06:56 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2022, 03:31:46 AM »
Ruth told the FBI about Oswald’s letter to the Soviet Embassy. Therefore she was an informant about that, at least.

Yes, , You're right, the FACT that Ruth Paine retrieved Lee's rough draft of the Russian Embassy letter from the waste basket and typed it up to give to FBI agent Hosty is confirmation that she was an informant.

One of the Loony LNer's thinks she was simply a good citizen.....  But that's a very shallow and unreasonable view.   Ruth Paine intruded into the Oswald's life in early 1963 and had far more than a passing interest in them......

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2022, 03:31:46 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2022, 01:44:38 PM »
Yes, , You're right, the FACT that Ruth Paine retrieved Lee's rough draft of the Russian Embassy letter from the waste basket and typed it up to give to FBI agent Hosty is confirmation that she was an informant.

One of the Loony LNer's thinks she was simply a good citizen.....  But that's a very shallow and unreasonable view.   Ruth Paine intruded into the Oswald's life in early 1963 and had far more than a passing interest in them......


I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.

Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.

TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2022, 01:44:38 PM »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2022, 06:01:42 PM »

I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.

Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.

TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.
Correct. At least according to her.  In the Mallon book "Mrs. Paine's Garage", he has this account:

"The following morning, Sunday, she noted that he'd [Oswald] left out, in plain sight on her secretary desk, the handwritten draft he'd attempted to conceal while typing."

She said that she glanced at it, saw him mentioning visiting the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and that "the notorious FBI" was following him and was stunned. What is this all about? She said she thought he was coming "unglued", that the story was a lie, a fantasy. So she made a quick handwritten copy that she later showed Michael. He read the copy, thought it was odd, but was nothing to worry about. So she kept it until Hosty/FBI showed up and asked if she had any information about Oswald. Was she not to give this to him? Or what? How is this being an informant?

She did say in the book that she moved on about the matter after discussing the note with Michael by thinking that if Hosty showed up she could have showed him her copy and talked about. But he didn't so she kept it quiet. This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.

Paine said she always wondered two things: that is, if she had given Oswald's rooming house phone number to Hosty (she didn't: again, some informant) or if she had called Hosty up about the note whether either of those matters would have led to a confrontation between Oswald and the FBI that would have stopped the assassination. Given Oswald's emotional state at that time, at his anger at the FBI I think it's not a wild belief.

And to repeat: she told Oswald about the Hosty visits and what they discussed. Would an informant do something like that?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 07:54:44 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2022, 06:01:42 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2022, 08:34:40 PM »
Correct. At least according to her.  In the Mallon book "Mrs. Paine's Garage", he has this account:

"The following morning, Sunday, she noted that he'd [Oswald] left out, in plain sight on her secretary desk, the handwritten draft he'd attempted to conceal while typing."

She said that she glanced at it, saw him mentioning visiting the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and that "the notorious FBI" was following him and was stunned. What is this all about? She said she thought he was coming "unglued", that the story was a lie, a fantasy. So she made a quick handwritten copy that she later showed Michael. He read the copy, thought it was odd, but was nothing to worry about. So she kept it until Hosty/FBI showed up and asked if she had any information about Oswald. Was she not to give this to him? Or what? How is this being an informant?

She did say in the book that she moved on about the matter after discussing the note with Michael by thinking that if Hosty showed up she could have showed him her copy and talked about. But he didn't so she kept it quiet. This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.

Paine said she always wondered two things: that is, if she had given Oswald's rooming house phone number to Hosty (she didn't: again, some informant) or if she had called Hosty up about the note whether either of those matters would have led to a confrontation between Oswald and the FBI that would have stopped the assassination. Given Oswald's emotional state at that time, at his anger at the FBI I think it's not a wild belief.

And to repeat: she told Oswald about the Hosty visits and what they discussed. Would an informant do something like that?


This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.



To me it is simply evidence that she tried to be helpful to everyone that she encountered. Whether it was Marina and the situations that she found herself in. Or, LHO looking for a job. Or, Parkland Hospital asking for blood donations. Or, Hosty performing his duties. I think that type of attitude is simply her nature.

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2022, 08:34:40 PM »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2022, 08:36:18 PM »

I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.

Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.

TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63.  LOL!

So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??   She had copied the text and gave it to Hosty.....

You certainly are a naivete, and gullible sucker.   

The reason that Hosty had called on Ruth Paine is because the FBI had lost track of Lee Oswald in Mexico City and they were trying to find him again.  They knew that Marina was living in Ruth Paine's House in Irving, but they couldn't find Lee......  When Hosty talked to Ruth Paine he told her to try to find out where Lee Oswald  was living.   So when Lee came to Irving she tried to find out where he was staying so she could INFORM the FBI.   (That's what informers do )



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Re: CE 833
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2022, 08:36:18 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2022, 08:55:45 PM »
Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63.  LOL!

So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??   She had copied the text and gave it to Hosty.....

You certainly are a naivete, and gullible sucker.   

The reason that Hosty had called on Ruth Paine is because the FBI had lost track of Lee Oswald in Mexico City and they were trying to find him again.  They knew that Marina was living in Ruth Paine's House in Irving, but they couldn't find Lee......  When Hosty talked to Ruth Paine he told her to try to find out where Lee Oswald  was living.   So when Lee came to Irving she tried to find out where he was staying so she could INFORM the FBI.   (That's what informers do )


So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??

Yes, this is what she has said. And Hosty confirmed it in his book. Ruth is still around. You would either need to ask her why, or see if you can find something in the records regarding what she has said about her reasoning….

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2022, 08:55:45 PM »

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2022, 10:29:00 PM »
The McCone memo in Reply #15 does not implicate the CIA in the assassination.
It would however implicate the CIA in the cover up.
Memorandums that were classified Top Secret most likely never saw the light of day.
Some documents were marked Secret for no apparent reason at all [like Mrs Roberts '1026 Beckley Oswald receipt']
Some goof ups were made accidentally available [like https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/jfk-assassination-files/jfk-files-j-edgar-hoover-said-public-must-believe-lee-n814881 ]
Do we actually think that Johnson/Hoover want that to be revealed?

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2022, 10:29:00 PM »

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2022, 10:57:03 PM »

So you think that Ruth kept the rough draft which she had retrieved from the waste basket  that Lee had created on Nov 9 until november the 23??  WHY  would she do that ??

Yes, this is what she has said. And Hosty confirmed it in his book. Ruth is still around. You would either need to ask her why, or see if you can find something in the records regarding what she has said about her reasoning….
I don't know how we got on to Ruth Paine here but it looks as though Mrs Paine did go out of her way to dig up stuff on Oswald and the 'Mexico trip'. -----
Quote
Mrs. PAINE - They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.
She didn't make a note on her calendar?
Quote
Mr. JENNER - Was that the first time?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things, that had happened.
Mr. JENNER - All right, give us them in sequence, please.
Mrs. PAINE - One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.
So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until--although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.
Mr. JENNER - It was a what?
Mrs. PAINE - It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an, FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.
My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.
Mr. JENNER - Was it inscribed on the bracelet?
Mrs. PAINE - It was inscribed, the name Marina.
"English money"?
"Buy tickets for bull fight" .... :D
None of these items were produced in evidence [at least that I've seen]
Once again...Marina played along---sort of.
Her 'bracelet' was too small and that offended her [she stated]
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 11:30:10 PM by Jerry Freeman »

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2022, 10:57:03 PM »

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2022, 04:00:46 PM »
The McCone memo in Reply #15 ....
Third paragraph mentions Hoover's aversion to the release of a memo from Warren De Brueys [N.O. FBI]
Which is probably--- https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32197130.pdf
Was also classified confidential.
Brings up one curious thought...If Oswald was so gung ho about the Cuban plight...Why didn't he maintain his Fair Play for Cuba activity in earnest when he resided in Dallas during '63?

 

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