CE 833


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Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2022, 02:55:45 AM »
Correct. She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination. And she told Oswald about the meetings. That angered him and he went to FBI headquarters to confront Hosty.

She and Michael testified that she showed him the letter and asked what they should do about it. He said it was nothing, that Oswald was bragging about his behavior, that he (and she) didn't think he actually went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. He had made it all up.

So she not only withheld this from Hosty, she told Oswald about the meetings. That's a pretty bad informant if you ask me. Besides, wasn't she a CIA agent?


From Michael Paine's testimony re the letter:

Mr. PAINE - Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she say?
Mr. PAINE - No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name. And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind....

he (and she) didn't think he actually went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. He had made it all up.

Yes indeed...That Lee Oswald had extra ordinary mental abilities....He could get The secretary at the Cuban embassy in Mexico City to believe he was there raising hell about a visa , when he never was there....ROTFLMAO....

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2022, 02:55:45 AM »


Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2022, 03:23:18 PM »
Correct. She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination. And she told Oswald about the meetings. That angered him and he went to FBI headquarters to confront Hosty.

She and Michael testified that she showed him the letter and asked what they should do about it. He said it was nothing, that Oswald was bragging about his behavior, that he (and she) didn't think he actually went to Mexico City and visited the embassies. He had made it all up.

So she not only withheld this from Hosty, she told Oswald about the meetings. That's a pretty bad informant if you ask me. Besides, wasn't she a CIA agent?

From Michael Paine's testimony re the letter:

Mr. PAINE - Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had--apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she say?
Mr. PAINE - No; she said--she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name. And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind....

She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination.

That's not correct....Check again ..... See page 311 of the WR, and notice the date.....
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 03:41:21 PM by Walt Cakebread »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2022, 04:34:22 PM »
She gave Hosty the letter AFTER the assassination.

That's not correct....Check again ..... See page 311 of the WR, and notice the date.....


If you are referring to the date of the typewritten letter (CE 15), November 9, 1963, that’s the date that it was written (typed). The date that the handwritten draft was given to Hosty was 11/23/63 (as Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” page 57. Since the assassination happened on 11/22/63, she gave Hosty the handwritten draft after the assassination. There are 12-days between the two dates in which she might have turned the draft of the letter over to the FBI. But she didn’t until the day after the assassination.

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2022, 04:34:22 PM »


Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2022, 09:06:56 PM »
Comments welcome-----
 
Oswald-CIA01b8" border="0

Information that was withheld from the Warren Commission, the press, and the American people.
You can bet your butt that the Soviets had it  :-\
Of course...the lone gunman guys will claim it's a fake.


Wow!....This is worth repeating.... Thanks, Jerry
Oswald-CIA01b8" border="0

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2022, 03:31:46 AM »
Ruth told the FBI about Oswald’s letter to the Soviet Embassy. Therefore she was an informant about that, at least.

Yes, , You're right, the FACT that Ruth Paine retrieved Lee's rough draft of the Russian Embassy letter from the waste basket and typed it up to give to FBI agent Hosty is confirmation that she was an informant.

One of the Loony LNer's thinks she was simply a good citizen.....  But that's a very shallow and unreasonable view.   Ruth Paine intruded into the Oswald's life in early 1963 and had far more than a passing interest in them......

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2022, 01:44:38 PM »
Yes, , You're right, the FACT that Ruth Paine retrieved Lee's rough draft of the Russian Embassy letter from the waste basket and typed it up to give to FBI agent Hosty is confirmation that she was an informant.

One of the Loony LNer's thinks she was simply a good citizen.....  But that's a very shallow and unreasonable view.   Ruth Paine intruded into the Oswald's life in early 1963 and had far more than a passing interest in them......


I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.

Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.

TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2022, 01:44:38 PM »


Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2022, 06:01:42 PM »

I believe that, in “Mrs. Paine’s Garage” it is written that Ruth found the handwritten draft laying on her desk. It is also written that she had previously seen LHO typing the letter on her typewriter. So your idea of her finding it in the garbage can and typing it herself is all wrong.

Also, The FBI and Hosty were already aware of LHO’s trip to Mexico and the letter that LHO typed and sent to the Soviet Embassy. They had intercepted the letter and copied it before letting it be delivered to the Soviet Embassy. Here is what Hosty wrote in his book “Assignment Oswald” it is 2:30 on 11/22/63, only two hours after the assassination and shortly after LHO was arrested.

TIME: 2:15 P.M. A hand clutched my elbow. I spun; Howe was in my face. “They’ve just arrested a guy named Lee Oswald, and they’re booking him for the killing of the policeman over in Oak Cliff. Officer’s name was Tippit.” It took me only a second or two to shift from the extreme right wing to Lee Oswald. Lee Oswald was a Communist who had defected to the Soviet Union and returned three years later with a Russian wife, Marina. I had an active file on both Oswalds, who were both considered espionage risks. I had learned on November 1 that Oswald worked at one of the Texas school book depository buildings in Dallas. I remembered thinking Tippit’s and Kennedy’s killings were related, and then it hit me like a load of bricks. “That’s him! Ken, that must be him. Oswald has to be the one who shot Kennedy!” Oswald was the son of a As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' who shot the president. We had a bead on the assassin. “Listen,” Howe said. “Do you have the Oswald file?” “No, I don’t. It should be in the active file cabinet.” Howe and I rushed over to the cabinet. The file was gone, which meant that the mail clerk probably had it for incoming mail purposes. We hurried to his office and started frantically looking for it. Loeffler, the only other supervisor in the office, joined us in the search, found the file, and handed it to me and Howe. Paper-clipped to the top we found a one-page communique from the Washington, D.C., field office. While Howe pulled out his reading glasses, I began reading the communique, which summarized a letter written by Oswald to the Soviet Embassy in Washington. The letter had been intercepted by the FBI, then read and copied by an intelligence agent before it was sent along to the Russians. According to the communique, Oswald had written that he had been in Mexico City and had spoken with “Comrade Kostine.” I had read something about this Mexico City meeting in October, but had been forbidden by FBI policy from questioning Oswald about it, as it would tip off Oswald, and presumably the Soviets, to our intelligence sources and methods in Mexico.

Ruth gave the handwritten draft to Hosty on 11/23/63. This was the day after the assassination during an interview that was instigated by the FBI. If you want to think that this makes Ruth Paine an FBI informant (she wasn’t), then you have to admit that she was not a very effective one.
Correct. At least according to her.  In the Mallon book "Mrs. Paine's Garage", he has this account:

"The following morning, Sunday, she noted that he'd [Oswald] left out, in plain sight on her secretary desk, the handwritten draft he'd attempted to conceal while typing."

She said that she glanced at it, saw him mentioning visiting the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and that "the notorious FBI" was following him and was stunned. What is this all about? She said she thought he was coming "unglued", that the story was a lie, a fantasy. So she made a quick handwritten copy that she later showed Michael. He read the copy, thought it was odd, but was nothing to worry about. So she kept it until Hosty/FBI showed up and asked if she had any information about Oswald. Was she not to give this to him? Or what? How is this being an informant?

She did say in the book that she moved on about the matter after discussing the note with Michael by thinking that if Hosty showed up she could have showed him her copy and talked about. But he didn't so she kept it quiet. This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.

Paine said she always wondered two things: that is, if she had given Oswald's rooming house phone number to Hosty (she didn't: again, some informant) or if she had called Hosty up about the note whether either of those matters would have led to a confrontation between Oswald and the FBI that would have stopped the assassination. Given Oswald's emotional state at that time, at his anger at the FBI I think it's not a wild belief.

And to repeat: she told Oswald about the Hosty visits and what they discussed. Would an informant do something like that?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 07:54:44 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2022, 08:34:40 PM »
Correct. At least according to her.  In the Mallon book "Mrs. Paine's Garage", he has this account:

"The following morning, Sunday, she noted that he'd [Oswald] left out, in plain sight on her secretary desk, the handwritten draft he'd attempted to conceal while typing."

She said that she glanced at it, saw him mentioning visiting the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City and that "the notorious FBI" was following him and was stunned. What is this all about? She said she thought he was coming "unglued", that the story was a lie, a fantasy. So she made a quick handwritten copy that she later showed Michael. He read the copy, thought it was odd, but was nothing to worry about. So she kept it until Hosty/FBI showed up and asked if she had any information about Oswald. Was she not to give this to him? Or what? How is this being an informant?

She did say in the book that she moved on about the matter after discussing the note with Michael by thinking that if Hosty showed up she could have showed him her copy and talked about. But he didn't so she kept it quiet. This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.

Paine said she always wondered two things: that is, if she had given Oswald's rooming house phone number to Hosty (she didn't: again, some informant) or if she had called Hosty up about the note whether either of those matters would have led to a confrontation between Oswald and the FBI that would have stopped the assassination. Given Oswald's emotional state at that time, at his anger at the FBI I think it's not a wild belief.

And to repeat: she told Oswald about the Hosty visits and what they discussed. Would an informant do something like that?


This is the best evidence, for me, that she was acting as an informant. Or considered herself one.



To me it is simply evidence that she tried to be helpful to everyone that she encountered. Whether it was Marina and the situations that she found herself in. Or, LHO looking for a job. Or, Parkland Hospital asking for blood donations. Or, Hosty performing his duties. I think that type of attitude is simply her nature.

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Re: CE 833
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2022, 08:34:40 PM »


 

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