Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie


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Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #168 on: July 30, 2022, 04:28:28 PM »
Seems to me like the Lovelady  and Shelley “guarding the elevators”  story was to CYA for Bsker crossing to run up the staircases instead of just guarding the ground floor by the rear staircase and elevators.

Thus the shooter might have been actually descending in one of those elevators ( instead of the unconfirmed supposed  trip by Jack Dougherty) to reach the ground floor about 70 secs post shots.

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #168 on: July 30, 2022, 04:28:28 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #169 on: July 30, 2022, 07:16:05 PM »
No it was not.

This was always Grodin's pet project. Who authorized them to go find Bill Lovelady and interview him about anything? Were they actually even talking to Lovelady? There is a question about the authenticity of Lovelady's signature on some signed documents.

You need a better list with a little more research behind it. Start with Adams and Styles never left the first floor until approximately 12:35. That fits the WC statements and Affidavits. That is what the WC learned from Adams's testimony

Garner did not confirm a thing.

Start with Adams and Styles never left the first floor until approximately 12:35. That fits the WC statements and Affidavits

From Adams' WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Not really sure how Adams' WC testimony equates with your made up time of 12:25pm. She insists she left the fourth floor within seconds, totally contradicting your suggestion to use WC testimony to confirm your made up timing.

Garner did not confirm a thing.

From Barry Ernest's interview with Garner as recounted in his article, "Another Ignored Witness Found":

The focus of my call to her, of course, was Victoria Adams, whether Mrs. Garner was indeed in a position to have seen Baker and Truly or anyone else on the back stairs, and who she had made the comment to that appeared in the Stroud document.
"I was at the window with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, and Sandra Styles," she said.
Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away, I asked her.
"The girls did," she responded.  "I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone."
They had left "very quickly…within a matter of moments," she added.
What did Mrs. Garner do after that?
"There was this warehouse or storage area behind our office, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there."
Her move to that area clearly put her into a position where she could have observed activity on the back stairs as well as on the
elevators.  But how fast had she arrived there?
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following "shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles.   She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say, "probably to get something."  Mrs. Garner said she did not actually see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth-floor landing seconds after.  When I asked how she knew they had gone down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started down.  I remember the stairs were very noisy."


Garner confirms both women left the fourth floor immediately. She also confirms the Stroud document with this account of her movements.

I wouldn't suggest you try a little more research...just try some.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 07:17:14 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2022, 02:19:45 AM »
Mr. PIPER. ... I was already excited over the shooting or something when he [Mr Truly] came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.


Prizes for guessing which stairway on the first floor--------------front or rear?--------------Mr Piper is actually talking about here as being the one Mr Truly and Officer Baker actually took after running in the front door!

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Friends, let us be clear about what Mr Piper is actually telling us when he uses these words: "he [Mr Truly] ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out"

These words make ZERO sense if applied to the rear area of the first floor.

They make sense ONLY if applied to the front of the first floor.

At the time Mr Piper saw Mr Truly and Officer Baker go up the stairs, he was facing and looking at the front lobby/entrance.

After seeing Mr Truly and Officer Baker run up the stairs, he was still standing there, i.e. in the same place-------a place that offered a clear line of sight to the front lobby/entrance

He saw people already outside who were swarming out and around towards the street

He saw some people (after Truly/officer had left) coming in through the front door

But it was where no one could come out from the inside front of the building to the outside that lay beyond the glass door-------------because Mr Piper would have noticed them.



And we can now make sense of this:

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.


Mr Piper is stating that he never saw Ms Adams come down the front stairway, though he is allowing for the possibility that she may indeed have come down it after he moved away and went to the back of the first floor



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« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 02:38:28 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2022, 02:19:45 AM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #171 on: July 31, 2022, 02:42:27 AM »
Since Mrs Garners statement is “I remember hearing THEM” then it’s a reasonable conclusion that there must have been some specific noise such as voices heard or heels clacking that convinced Garner that Adams and Stiles were the ones going down the staircase.

If that premise is correct then Mrs Garner had to have exited the 4th floor office by 30-35 sec post shots so as to arrive near the rear staircase by the west window approximately 40-45 sec post shots , thus A/S only about down and voice transmission more probable to be heard.

If Garner waited until 60 secs post shots before exiting , thus allowing enough time for Oswald to get down to the 4th floor , cross the landing and out of LOS , then It would be impossible for Garner to have heard any voices/heels clacking specific noise from Adams/Styles as they have exited the TSBD by that time.

The only noise that would have been heard would be a single persons 135lb weight transferred by padded flat shoes impacting the wooden steps as opposed to the greater weight of 2 women ( approx 250 lbs ) with pointed heel shoes concentrating that weight as point loads on the wooden steps.

I submit the 2 wornens weight of 250 lbs impacting the wooden steps  as more concentrated point loads  would generate the level of noise that Mrs Garner would state as being “VERY noisy”.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #172 on: July 31, 2022, 01:54:34 PM »
It was in all likelihood Officer Eugene Welcome Barnett whom Ms Adams & Ms Styles encountered when they came off the loading dock and ran out just past the first railroad track



And it may well have been Officer Barnett too whom Ms Adams had words with at the front door a few minutes later:

Mr. Liebeler.
How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?
Mr. Barnett.
It was around 2 1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2 1/2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. Liebeler.
From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?
Mr. Barnett.
Yes.


Don't cry, Mr Nessan, but your silly little Warren Gullible timeline is DOA!  Thumb1:

This is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. The problem with Deep Politics is there is no one to explain to you how screwed up your thinking truly is. Once again your opinion is being offered as a fact.

Supposedly within seconds of the assassination, Welcome Barnett ran to the back of the TSBD to meet Styles and Adams and tell them to go back out front. Then he runs back out front and tells them they cannot re-enter the building. Deep Politics Forum thinking at its finest.

Barnett's estimation of time is just an estimate. There are more factual time stamps.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #173 on: July 31, 2022, 01:55:36 PM »
~Grin~

Are you, or are you not, claiming that the words 'TOP SECRET' have been fraudulently added to each page of the document by someone not involved in the official curation of the document? Yes or no?

Nonsense! She told Mr Ernest she had major issues with the version of her WC testimony that was published. It was different to the transcript she had been asked to make corrections to----the transcript whose only issues involved grammar, punctuation & spelling.

And the fact that all of her changes were ignored proves that the purpose of getting her to make corrections had nothing to do with getting the published version of her testimony as accurate as possible. She had already waived the right to make corrections, yet they insisted on her making them nonetheless----------because they needed her handwriting on a number of pages in order to work their scam.

Nope! I have demonstrated how easy it was to pull the scam on the unsuspecting Ms Adams  Thumb1:

Like I say, this is the entire basis upon which you brand Ms Adams a liar..................



So-----------over to you with your proof that no one else could possibly have written this one little word in!  Thumb1:

I have no desire to babysit you. You posted the ridiculous tripe. You explain it.

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #173 on: July 31, 2022, 01:55:36 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #174 on: July 31, 2022, 01:58:01 PM »
Start with Adams and Styles never left the first floor until approximately 12:35. That fits the WC statements and Affidavits

From Adams' WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Not really sure how Adams' WC testimony equates with your made up time of 12:25pm. She insists she left the fourth floor within seconds, totally contradicting your suggestion to use WC testimony to confirm your made up timing.

Garner did not confirm a thing.

From Barry Ernest's interview with Garner as recounted in his article, "Another Ignored Witness Found":

The focus of my call to her, of course, was Victoria Adams, whether Mrs. Garner was indeed in a position to have seen Baker and Truly or anyone else on the back stairs, and who she had made the comment to that appeared in the Stroud document.
"I was at the window with Elsie Dorman, Victoria Adams, and Sandra Styles," she said.
Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away, I asked her.
"The girls did," she responded.  "I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone."
They had left "very quickly…within a matter of moments," she added.
What did Mrs. Garner do after that?
"There was this warehouse or storage area behind our office, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there."
Her move to that area clearly put her into a position where she could have observed activity on the back stairs as well as on the
elevators.  But how fast had she arrived there?
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following "shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles.   She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say, "probably to get something."  Mrs. Garner said she did not actually see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth-floor landing seconds after.  When I asked how she knew they had gone down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started down.  I remember the stairs were very noisy."


Garner confirms both women left the fourth floor immediately. She also confirms the Stroud document with this account of her movements.

I wouldn't suggest you try a little more research...just try some.

Nice work Dan, but it has all been viewed before. You don't need to do any research, just read back a few pages in the thread and you will see why this post is completely wrong. The Stroud document is a joke. Styles and Adams did not leave as quickly as they thought they did.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #175 on: July 31, 2022, 04:48:44 PM »
This is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. The problem with Deep Politics is there is no one to explain to you how screwed up your thinking truly is. Once again your opinion is being offered as a fact.

Supposedly within seconds of the assassination, Welcome Barnett ran to the back of the TSBD to meet Styles and Adams and tell them to go back out front. Then he runs back out front and tells them they cannot re-enter the building. Deep Politics Forum thinking at its finest.

Barnett's estimation of time is just an estimate. There are more factual time stamps.

~Snicker~

Translation, Part I: 'My claim that Adams & Styles' encounter with a policeman when they exited the Depository discredits Adams' timeline has itself been discredited, and I'm mad about it'

Translation, Part II: ''My claim that Adams' mention of a policeman at the Depository front door further discredits Adams' timeline has itself also been discredited, and I'm mad as hell about it'

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #175 on: July 31, 2022, 04:48:44 PM »


 

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