Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie


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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2022, 02:04:00 AM »
Well!

Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes clearly recalls that Mr Oswald talked in custody of a front entrance encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly. Mr Holmes also has a vague recollection that a coke somehow featured in Mr Oswald's claim:

as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit." Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone." And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

OK. Something about a coke.

Now, there is another curious detail in here: Mr Oswald, we are supposed to believe, having been told by the officer NOT to leave but to "step aside for a little bit" DISREGARDED this direction and "went on out the door" anyway-----------------without the officer noticing or doing anything to stop him.

This seems most improbable, as
a) Mr Oswald would hardly volunteer to Captain Fritz that he performed such a blatant & suspicious act of disobedience towards a police officer
b) the officer, being at the door, would hardly have been so negligent as to let him pass having just told him to "step aside for a little bit".

**

I would like to offer a scenario that might make sense of Mr Holmes' somewhat muddy recollection of what Mr Oswald said.

This scenario is still within the overall scenario I have been outlining in the present thread.

**

1. Mr Oswald buys a coke before the motorcade and, having come back down to one to eat his lunch, goes outside to watch the P. Parade with the coke. We may even have photographic evidence (thanks to Mr Cronkite) of him actually drinking from the bottle at the very time of the shooting:



2. Right after the shots ring out, Mr Shelley dashes down and off the steps to see what's happened out in the street; Mr Oswald follows him off the steps-------i.e. goes out with Mr Shelley in front. However! Before leaving the steps, Mr Oswald has the presence of mind to do one simple thing: he puts his unfinished coke down, safely over by the inside west wall of the entrance.

3. Several minutes later, and Mr Oswald------------who has meantime re-entered the building with Mr Shelley by the west door and spent some time inside----------returns to the front door. An officer stops him and asks him where he's going. Mr Oswald points down the steps and says, "I left my coke just down there. I left it there when the shooting happened. I want to get it." Mr Truly vouches for Mr Oswald and the officer agrees to let him pass: "OK, but stay in the vicinity."

4. Mr Oswald does NOT (for whatever reason) stay in the vicinity. It is THIS fact that will later strike Mr Truly as odd-------and make him report Mr Oswald's absence to Captain Fritz.

**

BTW!

Anyone skeptical that an employee would be allowed outside on the understanding that they not leave the vicinity should look at the Martin film and explain to us what Mr Bonnie Ray Williams is doing out there on the steps!



Yes, that's the same Mr Williams who will tell the WC this:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.


Mr Williams, one can only presume, was allowed outside on strict condition that he not go far. Just (as I am suggesting) like Mr Oswald.

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 03:27:01 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2022, 02:04:00 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2022, 12:24:02 AM »

Anyone skeptical that an employee would be allowed outside on the understanding that they not leave the vicinity should look at the Martin film and explain to us what Mr Bonnie Ray Williams is doing out there on the steps!



Yes, that's the same Mr Williams who will tell the WC this:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.


Mr Williams, one can only presume, was allowed outside on strict condition that he not go far.

Another way of putting this last sentence would be:

Mr Williams must have been allowed to step outside on strict condition that he not leave the building----------------i.e. that he stay on the steps.

What if Mr Oswald was granted the same permission?

All we would then need do is change one misheard word in Mr Holmes' recollection to relieve the illogicality in the following:

"And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside outside for a little bit." Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door" (Postal Inspector Holmes, WC Testimony)

Mr Oswald is told he may step ASIDE ==> Mr Oswald starts out the door = ILLOGICAL

Mr Oswald is told he may step OUTSIDE ==> Mr Oswald starts out the door = LOGICAL

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2022, 03:28:14 AM »
Still within the scenario of this present thread

Let us recall what Chief Jesse Curry was telling press within hours of the shooting:



Oswald rushed out--------just as an officer was rushing in

That verb-----------------'rushed'------------------will also be used by our friend Mr Harry D. Holmes in recalling Mr Oswald's account in custody:

There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."


Mr Holmes is actually recalling Mr Oswald's description of the same event described by Chief Curry: his rushing DOWN THE FRONT STEPS immediately after the shots.

Cf this from Mr Holmes' same WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----
Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time.


Well, indeed so: Mr Oswald was still UP on those front steps, and hence still UP in the building, when the commotion broke out; he rushed DOWN those steps in order to go OUT and see what the heck was happening in the street.

**

Now!

How do we square this with Mr Holmes' memory of Mr Oswald relating this RUSHING DOWN as having been interrupted by a cop at the door?

Easy!

Mr Holmes is compressing events severely not because Mr Oswald did so but because all Mr Holmes had to go on was Mr Oswald's responses to time-hopping questions put by Captain Fritz.

It went something like this:

FRITZ: Ok, so talk us through this again. When did you break for lunch?
LHO: Around noon. One of the colored guys asked me if I was going downstairs. I told him (etc.)
(============> AROUND NOON)
FRITZ: And you bought a coke in the lunchroom?
LHO: Yes. I went to the coke machine on the second floor.
(============> A FEW MINUTES BEFORE MOTORCADE)
FRITZ: And you say you rushed down the steps after hearing the commotion?
LHO: Yes. I've told you all this twenty times already.
(============> TIME OF SHOOTING)
FRITZ: I know, son. We just want to get everything totally straight. And an officer stopped you?
LHO: Yes. In the vestibule. I had just come up to the front door to get the coke I'd left out on the steps when (etc.)
(============> CA. 10 MINS POST-SHOOTING)


Mr Holmes is, understandably, giving us a somewhat garbled version of what Mr Oswald actually said. But he is still giving us crucial information suppressed in the official interrogation reports of Capt. Fritz, Agents Bookhout & Hosty, et al.

**

Mr Oswald's story, in short, did not change one iota between the story he told in his first interrogation Friday afternoon and the story he told in his final interrogation Sunday morning.

The all-important core claim remained:



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« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 06:54:19 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2022, 03:28:14 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2022, 08:53:38 AM »
So!

Mr Oswald made TWO exits from the building:

1. EXIT ONE: when he dashed off the steps in response to hearing shots and to seeing Mr Shelley dash off the steps

2. EXIT TWO: when he was allowed outside by the officer at the door (having been vouched for by Mr Truly) several minutes post-assassination.

It is thanks to Mr Shelley's partial truth-telling that we can explain how two different exits by Mr Oswald were possible: between EXIT ONE and EXIT TWO the two of them re-entered the building by the west door. (Mr Lovelady, meanwhile, simply stayed on the front steps.) And thanks to TSBD Vice President Ochus Campbell we know that Mr Oswald was seen in a small storage room on the first floor during the time interval between his two exits from the building.

Both Chief Curry and Postal Inspector Holmes SHARE an understandable error: hearing of these two exits--------------a dash + a less dramatic exit involving a cop--------------but not understanding the context, they conflate them into ONE exit.

And the 'investigating' authorities came up with a disgusting lie: they KNOWINGLY conflated Mr Oswald's two exits, as well as his sighting in the first floor storage room, into ONE ficitious incident: a lunchroom encounter. They did this because, if they were to sell him as the sixth-floor gunmen, they HAD to place Mr Oswald well inside the building shortly after the shooting.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 09:04:21 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2022, 09:20:50 AM »
Indeed so, Mr Beck! From every conceivable angle, the basic facts--------known to the 'investigating' authorities within hours of the assassination--------of Mr Oswald's comings and goings in and near the Depository were a complete disaster to the case that was 'building' against the USSR-defector for the shooting of Pres. Kennedy.

As for the bus, what happened seems fairly straightforward. Mr McWatters confused Mr Oswald with this strikingly similar-looking fellow:



Mr Roy Milton Jones

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Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2022, 11:50:58 AM »
But there is one more shock in store for the poor man.

In November 1976, he is interviewed for the HSCA. All is going well until near the end of the interview, when Mr Robert Groden hits him with the Martin film, which shows Mr Lovelady out on the steps plenty minutes after the assassination:



Mr Lovelady goes to pieces. His story of leaving the steps with Mr Shelley and re-entering the building by the west door is blown. He finally admits the truth: he didn't in fact re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting.

Nobody but Mr Lovelady realises it, but this is WAY more dangerous than all the crazy hooplah over Doorwayman in Altgens.

In January 1979, Mr Lovelady dies aged 41 of a heart attack.

"Mr Lovelady goes to pieces. His story of leaving the steps with Mr Shelley and re-entering the building by the west door is blown. He finally admits the truth: he didn't in fact re-enter the building until 20-25 minutes after the shooting."

Vickie Adams states she encountered Lovelady and Shelley, approximately 5 minutes after the assassination, near the elevator on the first floor.

Mr. Belin.
When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin.
Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

Mr. Belin.
Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.

Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS. That's correct.
Mr. Belin.
It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2022, 11:50:58 AM »


Offline Rick Plant

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2022, 01:50:47 PM »
Indeed so, Mr Beck! From every conceivable angle, the basic facts--------known to the 'investigating' authorities within hours of the assassination--------of Mr Oswald's comings and goings in and near the Depository were a complete disaster to the case that was 'building' against the USSR-defector for the shooting of Pres. Kennedy.

As for the bus, what happened seems fairly straightforward. Mr McWatters confused Mr Oswald with this strikingly similar-looking fellow:



Mr Roy Milton Jones

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What year was this photo taken?

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2022, 03:35:19 PM »
Still within the scenario of this present thread

Let us recall what Chief Jesse Curry was telling press within hours of the shooting:



Oswald rushed out

That verb-----------------'rushed'------------------will also be used by our friend Mr Harry D. Holmes in recalling Mr Oswald's account in custody:

There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.
But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."


Mr Holmes is actually recalling Mr Oswald's description of the same event described by Chief Curry: his rushing DOWN THE FRONT STEPS immediately after the shots.

Cf this from Mr Holmes' same WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of----
Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time.


Well, indeed so: Mr Oswald was still UP on those front steps, and hence still UP in the building, when the commotion broke out; he rushed DOWN those steps in order to go OUT and see what the heck was happening in the street.

**

Now!

How do we square this with Mr Holmes' memory of Mr Oswald relating this RUSHING DOWN as having been interrupted by a cop at the door?

Easy!

Mr Holmes is compressing events severely not because Mr Oswald did so but because all Mr Holmes had to go on was Mr Oswald's responses to time-hopping questions put by Captain Fritz.

It went something like this:

FRITZ: Ok, so talk us through this again. When did you break for lunch?
LHO: Around noon. One of the colored guys asked me if I was going downstairs. I told him (etc.)
(============> AROUND NOON)
FRITZ: And you bought a coke in the lunchroom?
LHO: Yes. I went to the coke machine on the second floor.
(============> A FEW MINUTES BEFORE MOTORCADE)
FRITZ: And you say you rushed down the steps after hearing the commotion?
LHO: Yes. I've told you all this twenty times already.
(============> TIME OF SHOOTING)
FRITZ: I know, son. We just want to get everything totally straight. And an officer stopped you?
LHO: Yes. In the vestibule. I had just come up to the front door to get the coke I'd left out on the steps when (etc.)
(============> CA. 10 MINS POST-SHOOTING)


Mr Holmes is, understandably, giving us a somewhat garbled version of what Mr Oswald actually said. But he is still giving us crucial information suppressed in the official interrogation reports of Capt. Fritz, Agents Bookhout & Hosty, et al.

**

Mr Oswald's story, in short, did not change one iota between the story he told in his first interrogation Friday afternoon and the story he told in his final interrogation Sunday morning.

The all-important core claim remained:



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Holmes's statement is radically different. Holmes's statement has LHO going downstairs to see what the commotion was about and then encountering Baker and Truly. The Hosty note has him going up to the coke machine and then LHO went outside to view the parade but with no mention of a lunchroom encounter with Baker and Truly.

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2022, 03:35:19 PM »


 

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