Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie

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Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2022, 06:00:16 PM »
So!

The 'investigating' authorities know that Mr Oswald has an iron-clad alibi.

Mr Lovelady pretends---------or rather: is told by the 'investigating' authorities to pretend----------that he was the man who accompanied Mr Shelley off those steps, out to the concrete divider, and over west to the first railroad track.

But the worst case scenario is always possible: a photograph/film clearly putting Mr Oswald and no one else outside with Mr Shelley. Such that the 'It's Lovelady' line just doesn't wash.

Preemptive solution? Get Messrs Shelley & Lovelady to estimate that they didn't leave the front steps until 3-4 minutes after the shooting.

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.


Quite ridiculous, of course, but it means that not even Mr Oswald showing up outside would exonerate him. He would have had time to fire the shots, make it down to the lunchroom for his encounter with Baker/Truly, and then leave the building.

As for what Mr Shelley would say in response to the emergence of an undeniable image of Mr Oswald away from the steps (e.g. on concrete street divider; on dead-end street; over west by first railroad track)? 'With all the excitement, I just didn't notice him there. But Billy was definitely there with me, he must be somewhere out of shot in this particular photo/film.'

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« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 11:58:19 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2022, 06:00:16 PM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2022, 01:05:29 AM »
As Alan points out, there is no good reason to assume the two figures walking west on the Elm extension are Shelly and Lovelady. They donít even appear to be walking together as one is walking faster and passes the other.

But there is even less reason to assume that the figure on the steps in black is Gloria Calvery.

I agree with the analysis of the two figures walking down Elm Street, they are clearly not walking together.
but there are plenty of reasons to assume the figure wearing black on the steps is Gloria Calvary.
In the Darnell footage it can be discerned that the figure in black is wearing what can only be a black head scarf and is linking arms with a woman wearing a white head scarf and an all white outfit. The figure in black is faced towards a man stood on the steps.
This is a very good fit with Billy Lovelady's description of Gloria Calvary running up to the steps and telling him the President had been shot. The woman in the black head scarf and, in particular, the woman in white can be identified in the Zapruder footage as standing in a position on Elm from which they can see JFK's head explode - and that is clearly what Calvary has seen.

Can Gloria and the woman in white run from this position to the TSBD steps before Baker gets there?
The answer is that this could easily be done given the distance involved.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 01:25:33 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2022, 01:05:29 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2022, 01:18:14 AM »
Friends, I submit that all this has a simple solution:

Mr Oswald left the building twice after the assassination-----------------------------

FIRST: Immediately after the shots rang out (when he followed Mr Shelley off the steps)

SECOND: Several minutes later (when he was stopped at the front door by an officer but vouched for by Mr Truly)


Mr Shelley, for all his blatant lies, indirectly gives us the key to a crucial riddle:
Mr Oswald re-entered the building by the west door

Mr Lovelady played no role in either exit, other than that of eyewitness.

His resemblance to Mr Oswald, however, meant that he got dragged into a baloney story about being the man who accompanied Mr Shelley out front, then to the railroad yard, and then back into the building.

**

At some point in between Mr Oswald's two exits from the building, he was noticed in the small storage room near the domino room on the first floor. This was after Officer Baker & Mr Truly had come back down from the roof-------------------i.e. around the time of this scene:



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Correct me if I'm wrong Alan, but in this scenario you are saying that Oswald isn't Prayer Man but was someone else stood on the steps who then left with Bill Shelley?

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2022, 01:18:14 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2022, 01:31:09 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong Alan, but in this scenario you are saying that Oswald isn't Prayer Man but was someone else stood on the steps who then left with Bill Shelley?

Well, three possibilities suggest themselves within this scenario:

1. Mr Oswald is the 'Prayer Man' figure in Wiegman but not the 'Prayer Man' figure in Darnell

2. Mr Oswald is standing somewhere else on the steps

3. Mr Oswald is standing behind the glass door (or at the open door) when the shots are fired, and subsequently goes down the steps and out front after Mr Shelley

I would tend towards #2

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2022, 01:31:09 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2022, 03:45:01 AM »
If this is Mr Lovelady in the Darnell film-----------------



------------------then it is even possible that the man passing out Mr Danny Arce in the Couch film is none other than Mr Oswald--------------



-------------who is following Mr Shelley, who is already a ways west
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 03:47:17 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2022, 03:45:01 AM »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2022, 06:14:32 AM »
Carolyn Arnold made no statement (as far as I know) locating herself where PM is standing in west corner of the entrance landing at the time of shots fired.

So Oswald is still the most probable candidate to be PM (imo) given the object in PMís hand being most likely a bottle ( which Carolyn Arnold did NOT have) and given the other numerous reasons of which a primary one is the Hosty note.

At this time I see no reason to supplant a  well reasoned theory for Oswald=PM (which has explanations for improbability of being noticed by others on the front steps) , with a more convoluted theory thatís even more improbable to explain Oswald unnoticed as heís running with Shelly !? Let alone not captured in any definitive way by camera ( as opposed to the image of PM in Darnell and Weigman)



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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2022, 06:14:32 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2022, 02:43:27 PM »
Carolyn Arnold made no statement (as far as I know) locating herself where PM is standing in west corner of the entrance landing at the time of shots fired.

So Oswald is still the most probable candidate to be PM (imo) given the object in PMís hand being most likely a bottle ( which Carolyn Arnold did NOT have) and given the other numerous reasons of which a primary one is the Hosty note.

At this time I see no reason to supplant a  well reasoned theory for Oswald=PM (which has explanations for improbability of being noticed by others on the front steps) , with a more convoluted theory thatís even more improbable to explain Oswald unnoticed as heís running with Shelly !? Let alone not captured in any definitive way by camera ( as opposed to the image of PM in Darnell and Weigman)

I take your point, Mr Mason, and have made clear a few posts back that I have by no means rejected the PM=LHO theory.

However! Four points are worth pondering:

1. Ms Arnold is not a random candidate for PM. a) Mr Shelley places her on the steps at the time of the assassination; b) Mr Ronald Fischer saw a young woman going into that entranceway very shortly before the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza. 2+2 may equal 4 here-----------a possibility that is all the more live as we have no confirmed 11/22/63 image of Ms Arnold to compare with PM-in-Darnell.

2. The lies of Messrs Shelley & Lovelady, as explored in this thread, require a compelling explanation. LHO=PM does not seem to offer that.

3. The blatantly false shadow down Mr Lovelady's side in Wiegman requires a compelling explanation. LHO=PM does not seem to offer that.



4. I believe the unaltered (or at least close to unaltered) Altgens photograph was shown once and only once to the American public-----------by Mr Walter Cronkite the evening of the assassination. If it is showing what I believe it may be showing, then we may be catching a glimpse of Mr Oswald not in the PM location but (what a coincidence!) in the selfsame area that has been artificially darkened in Wiegman



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« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 02:51:55 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2022, 02:43:27 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2022, 02:50:07 PM »
If this is Mr Lovelady in the Darnell film-----------------



------------------then it is even possible that the man passing out Mr Danny Arce in the Couch film is none other than Mr Oswald--------------



-------------who is following Mr Shelley, who is already a ways west

Friends, this part of Mr Buell Wesley Frazier's testimony may be of very great importance:

Mr. BALL - On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What color was the jacket?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning.
Mr. BALL - Did it have a zipper on it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.
Mr. BALL - It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.


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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2022, 02:50:07 PM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2022, 02:04:00 AM »
Well!

Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes clearly recalls that Mr Oswald talked in custody of a front entrance encounter involving an officer and Mr Truly. Mr Holmes also has a vague recollection that a coke somehow featured in Mr Oswald's claim:

as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit." Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone." And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

OK. Something about a coke.

Now, there is another curious detail in here: Mr Oswald, we are supposed to believe, having been told by the officer NOT to leave but to "step aside for a little bit" DISREGARDED this direction and "went on out the door" anyway-----------------without the officer noticing or doing anything to stop him.

This seems most improbable, as
a) Mr Oswald would hardly volunteer to Captain Fritz that he performed such a blatant & suspicious act of disobedience towards a police officer
b) the officer, being at the door, would hardly have been so negligent as to let him pass having just told him to "step aside for a little bit".

**

I would like to offer a scenario that might make sense of Mr Holmes' somewhat muddy recollection of what Mr Oswald said.

This scenario is still within the overall scenario I have been outlining in the present thread.

**

1. Mr Oswald buys a coke before the motorcade and, having come back down to one to eat his lunch, goes outside to watch the P. Parade with the coke. We may even have photographic evidence (thanks to Mr Cronkite) of him actually drinking from the bottle at the very time of the shooting:



2. Right after the shots ring out, Mr Shelley dashes down and off the steps to see what's happened out in the street; Mr Oswald follows him off the steps-------i.e. goes out with Mr Shelley in front. However! Before leaving the steps, Mr Oswald has the presence of mind to do one simple thing: he puts his unfinished coke down, safely over by the inside west wall of the entrance.

3. Several minutes later, and Mr Oswald------------who has meantime re-entered the building with Mr Shelley by the west door and spent some time inside----------returns to the front door. An officer stops him and asks him where he's going. Mr Oswald points down the steps and says, "I left my coke just down there. I left it there when the shooting happened. I want to get it." Mr Truly vouches for Mr Oswald and the officer agrees to let him pass: "OK, but stay in the vicinity."

4. Mr Oswald does NOT (for whatever reason) stay in the vicinity. It is THIS fact that will later strike Mr Truly as odd-------and make him report Mr Oswald's absence to Captain Fritz.

**

BTW!

Anyone skeptical that an employee would be allowed outside on the understanding that they not leave the vicinity should look at the Martin film and explain to us what Mr Bonnie Ray Williams is doing out there on the steps!



Yes, that's the same Mr Williams who will tell the WC this:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.


Mr Williams, one can only presume, was allowed outside on strict condition that he not go far. Just (as I am suggesting) like Mr Oswald.

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 03:27:01 AM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2022, 02:04:00 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2022, 12:24:02 AM »

Anyone skeptical that an employee would be allowed outside on the understanding that they not leave the vicinity should look at the Martin film and explain to us what Mr Bonnie Ray Williams is doing out there on the steps!



Yes, that's the same Mr Williams who will tell the WC this:

Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.


Mr Williams, one can only presume, was allowed outside on strict condition that he not go far.

Another way of putting this last sentence would be:

Mr Williams must have been allowed to step outside on strict condition that he not leave the building----------------i.e. that he stay on the steps.

What if Mr Oswald was granted the same permission?

All we would then need do is change one misheard word in Mr Holmes' recollection to relieve the illogicality in the following:

"And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside outside for a little bit." Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door" (Postal Inspector Holmes, WC Testimony)

Mr Oswald is told he may step ASIDE ==> Mr Oswald starts out the door = ILLOGICAL

Mr Oswald is told he may step OUTSIDE ==> Mr Oswald starts out the door = LOGICAL

 

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