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Author Topic: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie  (Read 26442 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #216 on: August 14, 2022, 06:02:14 PM »
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Some myths in JFKResearchLand refuse to die.

One such is that this is Mr Bill Shelley:




We know it's not because Mr Shelley himself stated on the record that he was OUT OF VIEW in the Altgens photograph:



The man usually identified as Mr Shelley is in fact Mr Joe Molina.

Mr Shelley is nowhere to be seen on those steps in Darnell.

As for where Mr Shelley was at the time of the shooting itself, I believe this is him here in Wiegman-------------"standing next to Lovelady":



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« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 06:03:59 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #216 on: August 14, 2022, 06:02:14 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #217 on: October 20, 2022, 01:58:41 AM »
Well!

1. Ms Geneva Hine, early statement:



She describes an officer ALONE coming up into the second-floor office area "almost immediately" after seeing pandemonium break loose out on the street.

Suggestion: This officer was in fact Officer Marrion L. Baker. Mr Truly had run in after him and merely shown him where the FRONT stairs were. No heroic quick dash a deux up the building

What other DPD candidates are there? Which other officer ran into the building very quickly after the shooting? None that I know of...........

Officer Baker MAY have been the officer who (on his own) was a little later seen by Mr Bonnie Ray Williams coming on to the fifth floor BY REAR ELEVATOR and checking out the floor:



*****

2. From the testimony of Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer:

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?
Mr. SAWYER. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?
Mr. SAWYER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.
Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?


Who was the man Mr Sawyer ran into? Mr Belin doesn't want to know! But we know he was apparently a Depository man:

Mr. SAWYER. And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.

Suggestion: This man was none other than Mr Roy Truly. He did NOT accompany Officer Baker up the building, but stayed downstairs. (Or, if an inference is to be made from Mr Eddie Piper's testimony, he went up only one story with him and then came back down to first floor.) Then, some 4-5 mins post-shooting, he accompanied Inspector Sawyer up to the FOURTH floor in the passenger elevator

*****

3. From the Stroud Letter:

“Miss Garner, Miss Adams’ supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.”

Suggestion: Miss Garner saw Mr Truly AND THE UNIFORMED INSP. SAWYER arrive on the fourth floor some 5 mins post-shooting

When Mr Barry Ernest interviews the elderly Ms Garner, she does NOT confirm seeing Mr Truly and an officer come up the REAR STAIRS. Her abiding memory of the chaotic aftermath is this:

“It was total confusion,” she said. “The Dallas Police, FBI, Secret Service were coming up the stairs, in the elevators, in all the offices."

Now cf what Insp. Sawyer says about what he did when he got on to the fourth floor:

Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?
Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.


Exactly where we would expect Ms Garner to be at this time.............

*****

4. From the testimony of Mr Jack Dougherty:

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.


But what timeframe is Mr Dougherty talking about here when he says Mr Truly had been on the fourth floor? As usual in his testimony, his sense of time is all over the place. Thankfully however he will make it perfectly clear in his 1971 interview with Mr Gill Toff:

Q:         I know cause he, he kinda helped out somewhat, according to them, to their statement.  Did you happen to eh, you know you said you came back downstairs and someone said go and see Mr Truly or go find Mr Truly, was he in the office at the time?
JD:       No, he was upstairs on another floor.


= Mr Truly was upstairs on another floor AT THE TIME someone said go and find Mr Truly

Q:         So when you came downstairs the first floor Mr Truly was in his office right?
JD:       Yes, for a while.
Q:         For a while, but then, you stayed downstairs for a while and then some FBI man came in you say and told you to go find him for him?
JD:       Yes, uh huh.


The implications of what Mr Dougherty has just said are explosive, for they offer confirmation that
a) when Mr Dougherty came downstairs just after the shooting, Mr Truly was ON THE FIRST FLOOR
b) when, a little later, some man flashing credentials asked Mr Dougherty to find Mr Truly, Mr Truly was NO LONGER on the first floor but was upstairs on another floor------------the FOURTH floor.

Development of earlier suggestion: The reason Mr Truly was at this later time on the fourth floor was that he had gone up there with Inspector Sawyer.

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« Last Edit: October 20, 2022, 02:11:38 AM by Alan Ford »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #218 on: October 22, 2022, 06:03:47 AM »
Idk if this means anything, but while reading Charles Givens WC testimony , I noticed that Givens described Oswald’s shirt as “greenish”.

Since Mr. Ford has suggested the shirt that the previously supposed Lovelady figure (walking away from steps GIF) is wearing seems  to appear longer in the back than the shirt Lovelady had  on (Bronson film GIF) , then I was going to counter with the point the shirt is also too lighter tone and larger grid pattern texture than the brown shirt Oswald (supposedly)  had on that day.

However , if Givens is describing Oswald’s shirt color as greenish” then unless Givens is color blind, then one has to question if Oswald might NOT have been wearing a reddish brown shirt but was wearing a lighter tone plaid shirt with greenish and white/light gray grid line texture?

If so then that could possibly explain the lighter tone and larger grid pattern texture of the shirt of the hypothetical Oswald walking past the speculative Danny Arce?

Also, presumably, Arce was a slight bit shorter than Oswald?

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #218 on: October 22, 2022, 06:03:47 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #219 on: October 22, 2022, 04:13:55 PM »
Idk if this means anything, but while reading Charles Givens WC testimony , I noticed that Givens described Oswald’s shirt as “greenish”.

Since Mr. Ford has suggested the shirt that the previously supposed Lovelady figure (walking away from steps GIF) is wearing seems  to appear longer in the back than the shirt Lovelady had  on (Bronson film GIF) , then I was going to counter with the point the shirt is also too lighter tone and larger grid pattern texture than the brown shirt Oswald (supposedly)  had on that day.

However , if Givens is describing Oswald’s shirt color as greenish” then unless Givens is color blind, then one has to question if Oswald might NOT have been wearing a reddish brown shirt but was wearing a lighter tone plaid shirt with greenish and white/light gray grid line texture?

The plaid pattern on the jacket/shirt in Couch may be nothing more than a film artefact:



On the other side, flannel-type jackets (such as Mr Frazier puts on Mr Oswald morning 11/22) are very often plaid

Mr Givens, by the way, also puts Mr Oswald in a gray jacket............

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 04:14:31 PM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #220 on: October 22, 2022, 04:51:00 PM »
Friends, let's think about this for a minute.

You are Mr Bill Shelley. You watched the P. Parade from the front steps. After the shots rang out you, and after you learned what had happened, you and Mr Billy Lovelady headed west to the railroad yards to see what was happening. Then the pair of you returned to the building via the west door.

Big deal, right? You did nothing wrong. So just tell your story honestly and all will be well.

Except no. Mr Shelley cannot get his story straight or make it credible. The above is only the final version that is settled by the time he goes before the WC.

Now! I am suggesting that this inability of his to get his story straight or credible is not wholly unconnected to the fact that he is named by Mr Lee Harvey Oswald as a man he stood around with outside for several minutes after the assassination.

My proposed solution explains at a stroke why Mr Shelley (and Mr Lovelady) told the specific lies they told:

The man who accompanied Mr Shelley to the railroad yards, where they stood around together for several minutes and saw all the excitement, was not Mr Lovelady but Mr Oswald.

Simple Questions:

If this is Mr Lovelady in Darnell, then where is Mr Shelley? And how can both men possibly be about to look back from the 'island' to see Officer Baker running up the front steps?



Bottom line:

If that is Mr Lovelady in Darnell, then he's not this man seen walking west past Mr Danny Arce in Couch:



And there is another candidate for this man------------someone whom his closest coworker puts in a flannel-type jacket that workday; someone who claims to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade; someone whose resemblance to Mr Lovelady will cause decades of fevered speculation...........
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 05:07:38 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #220 on: October 22, 2022, 04:51:00 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #221 on: October 22, 2022, 05:04:09 PM »
OBJECTION: No, the reason Shelley & Lovelady lied was in order to discredit Vicki Adams

RESPONSE: Makes no sense. All they had to do was say they spent several minutes watching the excitement in the railroad yards before reentering the building. Job done. But their demonstrable lies are absurdly in excess of what would be required. And! If they agreed to play ball on all those lies, ain't it strange that they are so hesitant or non-cooperative when it comes to the main deal of confirming an encounter with Ms Adams on the first floor?

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.


Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?
Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr. BALL - What is her full name?
Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?
Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.
Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.


Nope. The Adams timeline is small potatoes compared to what Mr Shelley is really hiding......................

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 05:07:20 PM by Alan Ford »

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #222 on: October 22, 2022, 05:23:00 PM »
Remember!

Mr Lovelady, when confronted in his HSCA interview with the Martin film showing him out on the steps, admitted that he didn't in fact reenter the building until about 15 minutes after the assassination.



Questions!

-Why would he have previously pushed a false claim to have reentered the building via the west door with Mr Shelley much sooner than this?

--Why did neither Mr Shelley nor Mr Lovelady's first-day affidavits make any mention of the fact that they had gone west together?

---If Mr Shelley went west alone, why not just have him testify that he reentered the building alone and saw Ms Adams on the first floor?

----Why bring Mr Lovelady into it at all?

-----And why Mr Lovelady rather than any other employee?

Answer: Because of the resemblance between him and Mr Oswald, which the Altgens photo had very early on catapulted to the forefront of the 'investigators'' consciousness

Anyone who comes forward and swears they saw Messrs Shelley and Oswald together outside in the first few minutes post-assassination can be countered with: 'No, that was in fact Billy Lovelady-----easy mistake to make.'

And this strategy raises the chances of explaining away any post-assassination outdoors image that might yet come to light of Messrs Shelley and Oswald together

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« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 05:29:48 PM by Alan Ford »

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #222 on: October 22, 2022, 05:23:00 PM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #223 on: October 22, 2022, 05:35:38 PM »
The key technique used in depriving Mr Oswald of his alibi was that of shifting the timeframe:

I visited the second-floor lunchroom several minutes before the P. Parade----------->I visited the second-floor lunchroom just after the assassination

I stood around down by the railroad yards for several minutes with Bill Shelley just after the assassination----------->I stood around out front for several minutes with Bill Shelley after eating my lunch after the assassination

Clever!

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