Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie

Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie  (Read 4336 times)

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2022, 02:16:32 AM »
And this may be Mr Shelley, his focus already turned away from the main street as he notices Officer Baker head for the front steps............



Mr Lovelady will notice Officer Baker too--------------only NOT from out on the concrete divider------------->Officer Baker is about to dash past him on the steps!

« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 03:07:43 AM by Alan Ford »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2022, 02:16:32 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2022, 02:21:39 AM »


In a few seconds' time, Mr Shelley and (following him) Mr Oswald will start moving west down the dead-end street as far as the first railroad track:


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2022, 02:21:39 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2022, 02:31:07 AM »
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened,



 and that he saw all the excitement..............


« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 02:38:51 AM by Alan Ford »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2022, 02:31:07 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2022, 02:47:31 AM »
Mr Shelley & Mr Lovelady's undoing?
Their absurd claim that they
a) both stayed on the front steps long enough to hear Ms Gloria Calvery come up and tell what had happened
AND
b) were already out at the concrete street divider when Mr Truly and the officer started up those front steps!

In reality,

-------------Mr Shelley encountered Ms Calvery out at the corner of that street divider, BEFORE she reached the steps:


-------------Mr Lovelady did not follow Mr Shelley off the steps but stayed there:


 Thumb1:
« Last Edit: July 06, 2022, 02:56:29 AM by Alan Ford »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2022, 02:47:31 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2022, 01:02:37 AM »
In 2013 Mr Buell Wesley Frazier said this:

"... some of the people Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady they went down to the triple underpass, before they went down there a lady come by, a woman came by and she was crying and said that somebody had shot The President. And so we looked bewildered and  I turned to Sarah and she said she said somebody had shot The President. And I said I thought that was what she said. She said she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes and I walked down to the first  step to where Billy was standing on the bottom of the steps and I looked around and it was just total chaos there and then from there I started to go down and see if I could find ehm Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady and there was so much chaos down there that I said well I better go back to work ..."

Perhaps Mr Frazier means 'I walked down to the first step to where Billy HAD BEEN standing on the bottom of the steps", but mentioning Mr Lovelady in this way seems kinda odd. Why not just say, "I walked down to the bottom of the steps"? And why no mention of Mr Shelley in this context?

Has Mr Frazier slipped up and described the actual scene he has in his memory?---------> walked down to the first  step to where Billy was standing on the bottom of the steps------------> i.e. Mr Frazier joined Mr Lovelady there

At the time Mr Frazier went down the steps, was Mr Lovelady still in the spot we see him in in Darnell, i.e. at the bottom of the steps?



And does Mr Frazier get himself rather awkwardly back on script by coupling up Messrs Shelley and Lovelady again with "...and see if I could find ehm Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady"?

**

Put the two statements together and the thing reads strangely:

"I walked down to the first step to where Billy was standing on the bottom of the steps and ... then from there I started to go down and see if I could find ehm Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady"
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 03:22:20 AM by Alan Ford »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2022, 01:02:37 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2022, 03:19:58 AM »
Friends, some folks claim that this is Messrs Shelley & Lovelady in the Couch film:



There are only two problems:

1. That is Mr Danny Arce, not Mr Bill Shelley

2. The much-made claim that what seals the deal on Mr Lovelady is the 'plaid' pattern on his shirt ignores the 'plaid' pattern on the other man's coat:



And look at how the 'plaid' on the 'Lovelady' shirt moves around from frame to frame.

It's just film noise!

 Thumb1:
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 03:27:23 AM by Alan Ford »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2022, 03:19:58 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2022, 03:47:32 AM »
From Mr Roy Truly's WC testimony:

Mr. TRULY. ... this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?
Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.
Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers
, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.


Huh? The Darnell film shows the scene as Officer Baker dashes by Mr Truly, just seconds after the events Mr Truly has been describing:



Does it seem realistic that Mr Truly had just before this been 'practically bor(ne) back to the first step' of the entrance 'through weight of numbers'? Hardly! It's fantasy land stuff.

But why would he embellish like this?

Well, it's a neat way for Mr Truly to so put himself in a crush of people as to plausibly distract him from anything else that might have been going on in those first seconds after the shooting. Why, it gives him positively TROY WEST levels of See-No-Evil blindness!

 Thumb1:

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2022, 03:47:32 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2022, 04:12:11 AM »
From Mr James Jarman's HSCA interview:

"We ran to the front of the building and as we was running out of the building the police stopped us, he told us to come back inside... after we was inside the building after that, I heard that Oswald had come down through the office and come down the front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us. And, Oswald was coming out the door and (Billy Lovelady, who had been standing out on the steps - A.F.) said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

Mr Jarman wondered why the officer at the door (-------------->Officer Eric Kaminski?) didn't send Mr Oswald back inside, as he did with them.

On the scenario outlined in this thread, I suggest that Mr Truly could say with certainty of Mr Oswald what he couldn't at this point say of Mr Jarman & Co.: he couldn't have been the shooter, because he was known to have been down at or by the front entrance when the shots were fired.

How would Mr Truly have known this of Mr Oswald?

Either Mr Shelley had told Mr Truly of his own (and Mr Oswald's) immediate post-shots movements,
or (and more simply) Mr Truly himself had noticed Mr Oswald leaving the steps immediately after the shooting--------with Mr Shelley in front (they were going OUT to the street divider; Mr Truly was going in the opposite direction, back towards the entrance)

Mr Oswald could no more be the gunman than Mr Shelley
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 04:19:15 AM by Alan Ford »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2022, 04:12:11 AM »

Offline Alan Ford

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2022, 04:32:21 AM »
Still on this scenario

Mr Oswald, in custody, gives a true account of his movements:

-broke for lunch
-second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke
-down to one to eat lunch
-went outside to watch P. Parade
-immediately after hearing shots: out with Bill Shelley in front
-saw all the excitement (on Elm St., in railroad yard)
-returned to building by west door with Bill Shelley
-some time later, based on remarks made by Bill Shelley, decided to leave
-stopped at front door by officer, but let pass after being vouched for by Mr Truly

These honest claims will be viciously distorted from one interrogation report to the next, with all sorts of nonsense being put in Mr Oswald's mouth.

Thus---------for example--------the time outside with Mr Shelley immediately following the shooting (concrete 'island' + railroad yards) will become stood around outside with Bill Shelley for five or ten minutes AFTER encounter with cop & Mr Truly in lunchroom, followed by eating lunch on one, and then going outside for the first time

----------Mr Shelley had the misfortune to have spent quality time with the now-accused immediately after the assassination
----------Mr Lovelady had the misfortune to have the wrong face in the wrong place at the wrong time


Hence these two men's------otherwise inexplicable and seemingly unnecessary-------lies.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2022, 04:32:21 AM »

Offline Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2208
Re: Messrs Shelley & Lovelady: The Big Lie
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2022, 12:49:19 AM »
This is, by far, the loneliest thread I've ever seen...which is a pity, as you have raised a massively important issue.
Lovelady's admission that he didn't enter the TSBD building for 20 - 25 minutes (confirmed by the Martin and Hughes films), reveals a series of lies in which Lovelady and Shelley were complicit.
They lie from the very outset.
Why would two, honest working men just going about their daily business lie to the authorities from the get-go about their movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination?
This is the murder of the most powerful man on the planet at the time and these two normal working men, rather than simply report what they did after the shooting, lie relentlessly.
But what is it, exactly, they are lying about?

I'm glad to see you've abandoned your Oswald-is-Prayer-Man bullsh$t, and not before time.

Note in the Darnell pic you've posted of Gloria talking to Lovelady on the steps, there is a man dressed exactly the same as Shelley stood at the bottom of the steps - precisely where Frazier places him.
It is surely after this brief conversation with Calvary that both men head for the west door (something they both conveniently forget to mention in their affidavits).
In their WC hearings both men get the chance to set the record straight. Instead, they both introduce the lie of seeing Baker and Truly approaching the TSBD building steps at least 3 minutes after the shooting (both men do this). Why are they both telling this lie?
Is it to do with how quickly they got to the west door? What did Lovelady do if he didn't go inside the building?
Both men lie in their WC testimonies about how they both entered the west door at the same time - why?
What's happening at the west door?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 12:51:19 AM by Dan O'meara »

 

Mobile View