Ballistic Calculator

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Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2022, 06:42:11 AM »
If you are referring to the factory iron sights on the Carcano 91-38 rifles, it is my understanding that they are fixed (non-adjustable). And according to Joe’s ballistic calculator data, impact of the bullet would be 5.76” high at 100-yards. It would be ~0.1” low at 219-yards (200 meters). So, the shooter has to compensate accordingly when shooting at an distance other than the 200 meters that he factory iron sights are made for.

Most soldiers of the first have of the twentieth century were armed with rifles. Most casualties were caused, not by ordinary soldiers but by artillery (about 60%) or machineguns (about 30%). When an ordinary soldier, with a rifle, did inflect a casualty on the enemy, it was generally at short range, often with the entire body of the enemy visible. Most shooting may be at invisible or barely visible enemies hiding in trenches. But most shots that hit are at the rare times the enemy is totally exposed, either because they are charging, or the soldier in question is.

I remember reading some article on the Carcano, that an Italian soldier was instructed to always aim at the belt buckle of the enemy. That way, so long they were within 200 meters (a longer shot would likely be a miss anyway), they are guaranteed a torso wound, since the bullet would be off only between zero to six inches high. So, they were not instructed to adjust their aim depending on whether they were 20, 50, 100 or 150 yards away. Sometimes it's best to just keep it simple.

That is why the Italians went with non-adjustable sights, unlike most nations. They figured making a rifle that could hit at 300, 400, or 500 yards won't do any good for most soldiers, who are not accurate enough to get a hit at those ranges anyway. And gives one more way a soldier could mess up, by having his sights adjusted for long range just when he just needs a critical hit at short range (possibly just before the enemy is about to shoot him) and ends up missing a relatively easy shot at short range because the bullet flew too high.

A good weapon in war? Yes. A good weapon to assassinate someone, where you don't want the sights to be off by as much as six inches? No. Except at Dealey Plaza. Where all the shots were well under 200 meters and the rifle missing "high" actually give a pretty good lead (within two inches) of the target, which was always rising.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 06:43:49 AM by Joe Elliott »

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2022, 06:42:11 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2022, 01:00:04 PM »
Most soldiers of the first have of the twentieth century were armed with rifles. Most casualties were caused, not by ordinary soldiers but by artillery (about 60%) or machineguns (about 30%). When an ordinary soldier, with a rifle, did inflect a casualty on the enemy, it was generally at short range, often with the entire body of the enemy visible. Most shooting may be at invisible or barely visible enemies hiding in trenches. But most shots that hit are at the rare times the enemy is totally exposed, either because they are charging, or the soldier in question is.

I remember reading some article on the Carcano, that an Italian soldier was instructed to always aim at the belt buckle of the enemy. That way, so long they were within 200 meters (a longer shot would likely be a miss anyway), they are guaranteed a torso wound, since the bullet would be off only between zero to six inches high. So, they were not instructed to adjust their aim depending on whether they were 20, 50, 100 or 150 yards away. Sometimes it's best to just keep it simple.

That is why the Italians went with non-adjustable sights, unlike most nations. They figured making a rifle that could hit at 300, 400, or 500 yards won't do any good for most soldiers, who are not accurate enough to get a hit at those ranges anyway. And gives one more way a soldier could mess up, by having his sights adjusted for long range just when he just needs a critical hit at short range (possibly just before the enemy is about to shoot him) and ends up missing a relatively easy shot at short range because the bullet flew too high.

A good weapon in war? Yes. A good weapon to assassinate someone, where you don't want the sights to be off by as much as six inches? No. Except at Dealey Plaza. Where all the shots were well under 200 meters and the rifle missing "high" actually give a pretty good lead (within two inches) of the target, which was always rising.

 Thumb1:

Also, the line of sight from the fixed sights on top of the barrel is slightly different that the line of sight from the center of the barrel (bore). The bore line of sight is even more different from the line of sight from the scope which is mounted above the barrel. These line-of-sight differences also come into play when calculating off-target distances at targets closer than the zero-in distance.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 01:14:58 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2022, 01:00:04 PM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2022, 01:34:11 PM »
Seems to me that when one is on the battlefield trying to avoid having
to learn German eventually, one can simply point-and-shoot at a Nazi torso
without needing a personal nerd tagging along with his degree in math.


Perhaps you'll be surprised to learn that Germany and Italy were "the Axis"  and fighting against The Allies...

No surprise here. In fact Italy declared war on Germany, switching sides in October, 1943.

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2022, 01:34:11 PM »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2022, 04:27:09 PM »
Mr. Eisenberg.
Can you give us your position, Mr. Simmons?

Mr. SIMMONS. I am the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory
of the Department of the Army.

-------------------------------

Mr. Mccloy.
If you were having a dry run with this, you could certainly make yourself used to the drag in the trigger without
discharging the rifle, could you not?

Mr. Simmons.
Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull.
When the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the slack is taken up, you
tend to have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to.

Mr. Mccloy.
This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up?

Mr. Simmons.
This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you feel
greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired,
and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the shoulder
into the weapon.

------------------------------

Mr. Eisenberg.
How did he do with the iron sight on the third target?

Mr. Simmons.
On the third target he missed the boards completely. And we have not checked this out. It appears that for the
firing posture which Mr. Miller--Specialist Miller uses, the iron sight is not zeroed for him, since his impacts
on the first and second targets were quite high, and against the third target we would assume that the projectile
went over the top of the target, which extended only a few inches over the top of the silhouette.

--------------------------

Mr. Eisenberg.
Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot
in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error?

Mr. Simmons.
Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I think
also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt.

Mr. Eisenberg.
Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy?

Mr. Simmons.
Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the
target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred.

---------------------------

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2022, 04:27:09 PM »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2022, 06:29:26 AM »


. . .

------------------------------

Mr. Eisenberg.
How did he do with the iron sight on the third target?

Mr. Simmons.
On the third target he missed the boards completely. And we have not checked this out. It appears that for the
firing posture which Mr. Miller--Specialist Miller uses, the iron sight is not zeroed for him, since his impacts
on the first and second targets were quite high, and against the third target we would assume that the projectile
went over the top of the target, which extended only a few inches over the top of the silhouette.

---------------------------

. . .


Yes, but Specialist Miller had very little experience firing Carcano rifles, probably a lot less than Oswald had. And he had never used the iron sights on a Carcano before. He probably did not know that the Carcano would miss high by 3.2, 4.7 and 5.5 inches at 43, 63 and 88 yards.

Most rifles fire a bullet at around 2000 MPH, but the Carcano fired at 1400 MPH. This means the rifle has to be aimed at a higher angle to hit a target at 200 meters, then it would with a different rifle. I don’t think that Specialist Miller would have been aware of this.

As I recall, now that Specialist Miller was made aware of how high the Carcano shot at a target at 88 yards, he wanted another try but they did not allow him to try again. They wanted to limit the use of Oswald’s rifle to keep it in the same condition as the time of the assassination, as much as possible.

Even so, if the target Specialist Miller was aiming at had been moving at the same distance, angle and speed as the limousine at z312, the target would have risen 3.7 inches by the time the bullet arrived. Resulting not in a miss of 5.5 inches high, as at a stationary target, but of a miss of 5.5 – 3.7 or 1.8 inches, and he would have hit the target.

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2022, 06:29:26 AM »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2022, 07:00:19 AM »
Yes, but Specialist Miller had very little experience firing Carcano rifles, probably a lot less than Oswald had. And he had never used the iron sights on a Carcano before. He probably did not know that the Carcano would miss high by 3.2, 4.7 and 5.5 inches at 43, 63 and 88 yards.

Most rifles fire a bullet at around 2000 MPH, but the Carcano fired at 1400 MPH. This means the rifle has to be aimed at a higher angle to hit a target at 200 meters, then it would with a different rifle. I don’t think that Specialist Miller would have been aware of this.

As I recall, now that Specialist Miller was made aware of how high the Carcano shot at a target at 88 yards, he wanted another try but they did not allow him to try again. They wanted to limit the use of Oswald’s rifle to keep it in the same condition as the time of the assassination, as much as possible.

Even so, if the target Specialist Miller was aiming at had been moving at the same distance, angle and speed as the limousine at z312, the target would have risen 3.7 inches by the time the bullet arrived. Resulting not in a miss of 5.5 inches high, as at a stationary target, but of a miss of 5.5 – 3.7 or 1.8 inches, and he would have hit the target.

"Yes, but Specialist Miller had very little experience firing Carcano rifles, probably a lot less than Oswald had.'

Miller was a Master Marksman who was actively competing and training.

The WC's self critique of it's evaluation of LHO's rifle capability on the other hand.



« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 07:03:14 AM by Gary Craig »

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2022, 07:00:19 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2022, 02:38:18 PM »
"Yes, but Specialist Miller had very little experience firing Carcano rifles, probably a lot less than Oswald had.'

Miller was a Master Marksman who was actively competing and training.

The WC's self critique of it's evaluation of LHO's rifle capability on the other hand.







One misconception that I see written in the above linked critique, and repeated in arguments, is the need to zero-in the scope after a period of non-use. While it is something that is often done by hunters and competition shooters, it isn’t necessary (especially for the short-distance shot requirements in Dealey Plaza). Weather extremes can sometimes make a slight difference (less than 1-inch at 100-yards). Changing the type of ammunition is a good reason to zero-in a scope because of the differences in the ammo, etc. But some folks would have us believe that unless the scope was zeroed-in just before the assassination, that no one could hit the broadside of a barn with it. That is nonsense.

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2022, 02:38:18 PM »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2022, 04:21:48 PM »


One misconception that I see written in the above linked critique, and repeated in arguments, is the need to zero-in the scope after a period of non-use. While it is something that is often done by hunters and competition shooters, it isn’t necessary (especially for the short-distance shot requirements in Dealey Plaza). Weather extremes can sometimes make a slight difference (less than 1-inch at 100-yards). Changing the type of ammunition is a good reason to zero-in a scope because of the differences in the ammo, etc. But some folks would have us believe that unless the scope was zeroed-in just before the assassination, that no one could hit the broadside of a barn with it. That is nonsense.

That's not exactly the point the critique is making about the reason the scope on the TSBD Carcano needed to be sighted in.

"You can't leave a rifle and scope laying around in a garage underfoot for almost 3 months,
just having brought it back from New Orleans in the back of a station wagon, and expect
to hit anything with it, unless you take the trouble to fire it and sight the scope in."


In addition the official story claims LHO broke the rifle down and carried it to work in a paper sack, then used a dime to to reassemble it. That in itself would have compromised it's accuracy.


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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2022, 04:21:48 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2022, 05:45:44 PM »
That's not exactly the point the critique is making about the reason the scope on the TSBD Carcano needed to be sighted in.

"You can't leave a rifle and scope laying around in a garage underfoot for almost 3 months,
just having brought it back from New Orleans in the back of a station wagon, and expect
to hit anything with it, unless you take the trouble to fire it and sight the scope in."


In addition the official story claims LHO broke the rifle down and carried it to work in a paper sack, then used a dime to to reassemble it. That in itself would have compromised it's accuracy.


Neither one of those two statements have any merit whatsoever. They are used to try to mislead people who don’t know any better.

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2022, 05:45:44 PM »

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Ballistic Calculator
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2022, 06:20:03 PM »

Neither one of those two statements have any merit whatsoever. They are used to try to mislead people who don’t know any better.

 Charles, the only one who is attempting to mislead those who don't know any better is you.

From Wesley J. Liebeler, one of the Warren Commission's senior attorney?:

"You can't leave a rifle and scope laying around in a garage underfoot for almost 3 months,
just having brought it back from New Orleans in the back of a station wagon, and expect
to hit anything with it, unless you take the trouble to fire it and sight the scope in."


My statement from personal experience:

"In addition the official story claims LHO broke the rifle down and carried it to work in a paper sack, then used a dime to to reassemble it. That in itself would have compromised it's accuracy."







 

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