Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.

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Online David Von Pein

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2022, 02:37:42 AM »
Which is exactly why I asked him what the purpose of his question was. Get it now?

Yeah.....I guess.

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2022, 02:37:42 AM »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2022, 02:59:43 AM »

What is the purpose of this loaded question?

Is it to somehow "prove" that the head moving forward didn't happen, when we can see in the Z-film that it did?

Want to change reality again?

The evil intent of my question is for me to know and for you to guess. No, it is not an evil question. It is not intended to be a loaded question. Why do you assume their always has to be some ‘bad intent’ from a LNer? If a LNer asks a question, it must be a loaded question. I think this comes from a subconscious belief that all LNers have to be part of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy. That we all have bad intentions when we make a statement about the JFK assassination. The possibility that we can merely be mistaken in our beliefs does not seem to be the first thing you assume. Let alone the possibility that we may be essentially correct.

In any case, what is my intent? My intent is to confirm that most witnesses, perhaps all, did not remember the movement of JFK’s head immediately after he was shot in the head. If this is so, then it is not strange for Dan Rather to not remember the movement of JFK’s head from his one viewing of the Zapruder film.

I assume that while Dan Rather watched the film, he wasn’t going into to see which direction the head moved. This only became a big question later on. And like most/all Dealey Plaza witnesses, he didn’t remember this detail.

When asked if he noticed the direction the head move, he should have said “I don’t know”. But people don’t do that. If they don’t know, they don’t remember, they try to use logic to figure out what they must have seen. Rather’s logic would likely be that the shot came from the back, therefore the head must have moved forward. And he related this is what he saw. Note, this is not conscious thought. All this takes place subconsciously. He likely would end up with a visual ‘memory’ of JFK’s head moving forward, not realizing that this ‘memory’ was constructed by his subconscious. This is what people do.

Something similar happened to the Dealey Plaza witness. Did JFK’s limousine stop? Most were in a bad position to see it. But many were near the follow up cars, some of which must have stopped, because of the limousine’s sudden slowdown from 14 to 8 mph. Their subconscious concluded that JFK’s limousine must has stopped as well. And may have even ended up with a memory of the limousine stopping, even though it never did and was not even visible to them at the time of the headshot.

And I have a second intent. To illustrate, once again, how unreliable witnesses are, either to a real time event or a one-time viewing of a film.

And my third intent? To argue against CBS being involved in the conspiracy. On the grounds that any conspirators would try to form as small a conspiracy as possible. That is what real-life conspirators do. But some seem to think that a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy is what we should expect. So, it would be natural to expect that CBS would be in on it. This is the classical type of thinking of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy believer.

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2022, 02:59:43 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2022, 03:26:45 AM »
The evil intent of my question is for me to know and for you to guess. No, it is not an evil question. It is not intended to be a loaded question. Why do you assume their always has to be some ‘bad intent’ from a LNer? If a LNer asks a question, it must be a loaded question. I think this comes from a subconscious belief that all LNers have to be part of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy. That we all have bad intentions when we make a statement about the JFK assassination. The possibility that we can merely be mistaken in our beliefs does not seem to be the first thing you assume. Let alone the possibility that we may be essentially correct.

In any case, what is my intent? My intent is to confirm that most witnesses, perhaps all, did not remember the movement of JFK’s head immediately after he was shot in the head. If this is so, then it is not strange for Dan Rather to not remember the movement of JFK’s head from his one viewing of the Zapruder film.

I assume that while Dan Rather watched the film, he wasn’t going into to see which direction the head moved. This only became a big question later on. And like most/all Dealey Plaza witnesses, he didn’t remember this detail.

When asked if he noticed the direction the head move, he should have said “I don’t know”. But people don’t do that. If they don’t know, they don’t remember, they try to use logic to figure out what they must have seen. Rather’s logic would likely be that the shot came from the back, therefore the head must have moved forward. And he related this is what he saw. Note, this is not conscious thought. All this takes place subconsciously. He likely would end up with a visual ‘memory’ of JFK’s head moving forward, not realizing that this ‘memory’ was constructed by his subconscious. This is what people do.

Something similar happened to the Dealey Plaza witness. Did JFK’s limousine stop? Most were in a bad position to see it. But many were near the follow up cars, some of which must have stopped, because of the limousine’s sudden slowdown from 14 to 8 mph. Their subconscious concluded that JFK’s limousine must has stopped as well. And may have even ended up with a memory of the limousine stopping, even though it never did and was not even visible to them at the time of the headshot.

And I have a second intent. To illustrate, once again, how unreliable witnesses are, either to a real time event or a one-time viewing of a film.

And my third intent? To argue against CBS being involved in the conspiracy. On the grounds that any conspirators would try to form as small a conspiracy as possible. That is what real-life conspirators do. But some seem to think that a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy is what we should expect. So, it would be natural to expect that CBS would be in on it. This is the classical type of thinking of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy believer.

Why do you assume their always has to be some ‘bad intent’ from a LNer?

You need to ask?

I think this comes from a subconscious belief that all LNers have to be part of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy.

Not really, but understandable that you would think that.

That we all have bad intentions when we make a statement about the JFK assassination. The possibility that we can merely be mistaken in our beliefs does not seem to be the first thing you assume.

Actually, I always assume that an LN is simply mistaken, but then - in most cases - they refuse to have an open and honest discussion, start making up false narratives and ignoring logic and an obvious fact. Might I recall where you once argued that a police car on it's way to the Tippit scene with full lights and sirene on would stop for a red traffic light?

Or, for that matter, in my mini-debate with Bill Brown you concluded Brown was right because, you said, you followed the evidence (in this case the DPD radio recordings) when in fact those recording provided no support for your conclusion at all.

In any case, what is my intent? My intent is to confirm that most witnesses, perhaps all, did not remember the movement of JFK’s head immediately after he was shot in the head. If this is so, then it is not strange for Dan Rather to not remember the movement of JFK’s head from his one viewing of the Zapruder film.

Comparing apples and oranges. Witnesses at Dealey Plaza were in the action (so to speak) with shots being fired and unaware where they come from. They had very little time and interest, I imagine, to observe what was going on the the limo. Rather, on the other hand, had no such things going on and knew in advance what he was going to see.

But people don’t do that. If they don’t know, they don’t remember, they try to use logic to figure out what they must have seen.

Agreed

And I have a second intent. To illustrate, once again, how unreliable witnesses are, either to a real time event or a one-time viewing of a film.

Agreed, again, but now let's apply this to the Tippit witnesses, where the LNs have no problem accepting the fact that all the witnesses at the line ups identified Oswald as the man they saw. There, all of a sudden, all witnesses are correct and none of them just identify the most likely person in the line up. What is your opinion about that?

To argue against CBS being involved in the conspiracy. On the grounds that any conspirators would try to form as small a conspiracy as possible.

Again, I agree.

That is what real-life conspirators do. But some seem to think that a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy is what we should expect.

Agreed, but that is what the LNs seem to believe that all CTs believe, when in fact they don't.

This is the classical type of thinking of a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy believer.

I don't care much for this large secret conspiracy BS. I don't agree with the CTs that make such claims and I don't agree with LNs who frequently use it as a strawman argument.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 11:28:07 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2022, 03:26:45 AM »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2022, 06:55:51 AM »

Why do you assume their always has to be some ‘bad intent’ from a LNer?

You need to ask?

Yes, I do. It seems strange for me that you would think that LNers have bad intent.

Why do you think that?

Aren’t you implying that you think we are all involved in a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy? Why else would we all have bad intents? By coincidence?

. . .

Actually, I always assume that an LN is simply mistaken, but then - in most cases - they refuse to have an open and honest discussion, start making up false narratives and ignoring logic and an obvious fact.

Might I recall where you once argued that a police car on it's way to the Tippit scene with full lights and sirene on would stop for a red traffic light?

No, I don’t recall saying that. Can you post a link to this?

What I recall saying is that a police car summoned to the Tippit murder scene, but many, many miles away, with other police cars already at scene, or much closer than he, might elect to proceed at normal speed rather than high speed while using sirens and flashing lights. And yes, while proceeding at normal speed, he would not run red lights. If he proceeds at high speed, even with lights and sirens, while running red lights, he is more likely to cause a serious accident, then arrive at the Tippit murder scene in the nick of time.

It would be different if he was just a quarter mile away and it was reported a suspect was getting away and he was the closest to the scene. In that case, yes, flashing lights, sirens, and a high-speed approach would be appropriate. But not from many miles away.

Are you certain you didn’t miss report what I said?

Or, for that matter, in my mini-debate with Bill Brown you concluded Brown was right because, you said, you followed the evidence (in this case the DPD radio recordings) when in fact those recordingd provided no support for your conclusion at all.

The words are hard to make out but I think that experts who examine the tapes back Brown’s arguments. In any case, I haven’t looked into it very much myself.

Of course, your claims have absolutely no support from the dictabelt tapes. At best, At best, your scenario has no more support than Bill’s.

In any case, any question about what the dictabelt recording says or doesn’t say should not be directed to me or Bill but to our true expert on the subject. Steve Barber.

Agreed, again, but now let's apply this to the Tippit witnesses, where the LNs have no problem accepting the fact that all the witnesses at the line ups identified Oswald as the man they saw. There, all of a sudden, all witnesses are correct and none of them just identify the most likely person in the line up. What is your opinion about that?

I always found the Officer Tippit witnesses to be the weakest reasons to think Oswald killed Officer Tippit. Because eyewitness identifying suspects is not reliable.

Where have I said otherwise?

But Oswald being found a half hour within a half mile (as I recall) of the murder scene. Oswald being found with the loaded murder weapon that matched shells found at the scene. Oswald being found with bullets in his pocket of the same type used to kill Officer Tippit. Oswald’s suspicious behavior just before entering the theater and within the theater. And Oswald pulling a gun on the first police officer to approach him in the theater. If I can explain away all this, I can explain away any evidence against anyone. All these things I find incredibly incriminating against Oswald.



In any case, what is my intent? My intent is to confirm that most witnesses, perhaps all, did not remember the movement of JFK’s head immediately after he was shot in the head. If this is so, then it is not strange for Dan Rather to not remember the movement of JFK’s head from his one viewing of the Zapruder film.

Comparing apples and oranges. Witnesses at Dealey Plaza were in the action (so to speak) with shots being fired and unaware where they come from. They had very little time and interest, I imagine, to observe what was going on the the limo. Rather, on the other hand, had no such things going on and knew in advance what he was going to see.

Yes. But Rather did not know what he should look for. He did not know he should see which direction JFK’s head moved after being shot. He did not know if he should try to see if Connally and JFK were struck at the same time or different times. All these issues came up later.

Like the Dealey Plaza witnesses, I think Rather was surprised just how bloody awful the head shot was and didn’t note what direction JFK’s head moved.

When asked about it later he, subconsciously, guessed what happened.


In any case, no one can come up with a single Dealey Plaza witness who saw the head move forward. Thus answering my basic question.

This has point has been somewhat lost with you concentrating on other matters that have no bearing on my one question. But it is clear that no one can come up with a single such witness.


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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2022, 06:55:51 AM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2022, 07:41:28 AM »
But Oswald being found a half hour within a half mile (as I recall) of the murder scene. Oswald being found with the loaded murder weapon that matched shells found at the scene. Oswald being found with bullets in his pocket of the same type used to kill Officer Tippit. Oswald’s suspicious behavior just before entering the theater and within the theater. And Oswald pulling a gun on the first police officer to approach him in the theater. If I can explain away all this, I can explain away any evidence against anyone. All these things I find incredibly incriminating against Oswald.

Those are all interesting claims. You would do well to ascertain if they are actually true before deciding that they incriminate Oswald.

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2022, 07:41:28 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2022, 11:45:44 AM »
Yes, I do. It seems strange for me that you would think that LNers have bad intent.

Why do you think that?

Aren’t you implying that you think we are all involved in a Large-Secret-Enduring conspiracy? Why else would we all have bad intents? By coincidence?

No, I don’t recall saying that. Can you post a link to this?

What I recall saying is that a police car summoned to the Tippit murder scene, but many, many miles away, with other police cars already at scene, or much closer than he, might elect to proceed at normal speed rather than high speed while using sirens and flashing lights. And yes, while proceeding at normal speed, he would not run red lights. If he proceeds at high speed, even with lights and sirens, while running red lights, he is more likely to cause a serious accident, then arrive at the Tippit murder scene in the nick of time.

It would be different if he was just a quarter mile away and it was reported a suspect was getting away and he was the closest to the scene. In that case, yes, flashing lights, sirens, and a high-speed approach would be appropriate. But not from many miles away.

Are you certain you didn’t miss report what I said?

The words are hard to make out but I think that experts who examine the tapes back Brown’s arguments. In any case, I haven’t looked into it very much myself.

Of course, your claims have absolutely no support from the dictabelt tapes. At best, At best, your scenario has no more support than Bill’s.

In any case, any question about what the dictabelt recording says or doesn’t say should not be directed to me or Bill but to our true expert on the subject. Steve Barber.

I always found the Officer Tippit witnesses to be the weakest reasons to think Oswald killed Officer Tippit. Because eyewitness identifying suspects is not reliable.

Where have I said otherwise?

But Oswald being found a half hour within a half mile (as I recall) of the murder scene. Oswald being found with the loaded murder weapon that matched shells found at the scene. Oswald being found with bullets in his pocket of the same type used to kill Officer Tippit. Oswald’s suspicious behavior just before entering the theater and within the theater. And Oswald pulling a gun on the first police officer to approach him in the theater. If I can explain away all this, I can explain away any evidence against anyone. All these things I find incredibly incriminating against Oswald.


Yes. But Rather did not know what he should look for. He did not know he should see which direction JFK’s head moved after being shot. He did not know if he should try to see if Connally and JFK were struck at the same time or different times. All these issues came up later.

Like the Dealey Plaza witnesses, I think Rather was surprised just how bloody awful the head shot was and didn’t note what direction JFK’s head moved.

When asked about it later he, subconsciously, guessed what happened.


In any case, no one can come up with a single Dealey Plaza witness who saw the head move forward. Thus answering my basic question.

This has point has been somewhat lost with you concentrating on other matters that have no bearing on my one question. But it is clear that no one can come up with a single such witness.

The words are hard to make out but I think that experts who examine the tapes back Brown’s arguments. In any case, I haven’t looked into it very much myself.

Of course, your claims have absolutely no support from the dictabelt tapes. At best, At best, your scenario has no more support than Bill’s.

In any case, any question about what the dictabelt recording says or doesn’t say should not be directed to me or Bill but to our true expert on the subject. Steve Barber.


Thank you for providing the best example of LN ignorance and/or denial of facts.

The words are hard to make out but I think that experts who examine the tapes back Brown’s arguments. In any case, I haven’t looked into it very much myself.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, but the words on the recordings are perfectly well to make out. The ambulance driver, Butler, tried to call the dispatcher twice, by saying "602", which is what you hear on the tape. You don't need to be an expert to hear that, but, and this is the worst part, how in the world can you come to any conclusion if you haven't looked into it very much?

Of course, your claims have absolutely no support from the dictabelt tapes. At best, At best, your scenario has no more support than Bill’s.

This is in fact simply not true. Brown claimed that the second "602" call was Butler trying to tell the dispatcher that the ambulance was leaving. He claimed to have a source for this information but he never produced it. I, on the other hand, argued that Butler had told George and Patrica Nash in 1964 that he wanted to inform the dispatcher that the victim was a police officer and that he tried in vain to get through twice. It's in their article. So, in fact it's the other way around. My scenario has more support than Bill's, who has provided no support at all for his claim.

In any case, any question about what the dictabelt recording says or doesn’t say should not be directed to me or Bill but to our true expert on the subject. Steve Barber.

And this only shows how little you have been paying attention to the discussion as there was no question whatsoever about what the dictabelt recording says and no question was asked about it.

All this tells me that you simply took Bill Brown's side, not because you had listened to the arguments, but simply because he was a fellow LN. And that of course answers your other questions about why I think LNs have bad intent as well.

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2022, 11:45:44 AM »

Offline Paul J Cummings

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2022, 02:34:41 PM »
The bullet casings found with Tippit were a 38 automatic revolver which could eject while Oswalds was a 38 revolver which was not an automatic.

"But Oswald being found a half hour within a half mile (as I recall) of the murder scene. Oswald being found with the loaded murder weapon that matched shells found at the scene. Oswald being found with bullets in his pocket of the same type used to kill Officer Tippit. Oswald’s suspicious behavior just before entering the theater and within the theater. And Oswald pulling a gun on the first police officer to approach him in the theater. If I can explain away all this, I can explain away any evidence against anyone. All these things I find incredibly incriminating against Oswald."



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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2022, 02:34:41 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2022, 06:41:05 PM »
Question:

Can someone provide us with a list of witnesses, along with a link or something supporting this claim, who reported seeing JFK’s head moving forward as a result of the headshot during the first three days of the assassination?


Note, this cannot include a person who saw the Zapruder film.


This is a simple question that deserves a reasonable response. But instead, we see an unreasonable relentless attack on Joe. This is why I believe it best to ignore responses from these attackers. Once in a while I get a wild hair and disregard my own suggestion. But I tend to ignore them the vast majority of the time.

Joe, in my opinion and to the best of my memory, not one eyewitness reported what you are asking about. And I believe that one primary reason for this is that the forward movement was only a short distance and the small fraction of a second that elapsed was too quick for discernment by normal eyesight. Zapruder had an almost perfect angle for detecting the forward movement. But practically everyone who views the Zapruder film at normal motion speed misses the forward motion and only perceives the much slower backward motion that followed. Only a handful of the eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza had a similar angle to Zapruder’s angle. I think that those witnesses would be the likely ones to search for any possible reports of what you are asking about. The other eyewitnesses, with views from other angles, I think would be even less likely to be able to detect such a small and very quick forward motion.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 07:04:36 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2022, 06:41:05 PM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2022, 07:46:24 PM »

This is a simple question that deserves a reasonable response. But instead, we see an unreasonable relentless attack on Joe. This is why I believe it best to ignore responses from these attackers. Once in a while I get a wild hair and disregard my own suggestion. But I tend to ignore them the vast majority of the time.

Joe, in my opinion and to the best of my memory, not one eyewitness reported what you are asking about. And I believe that one primary reason for this is that the forward movement was only a short distance and the small fraction of a second that elapsed was too quick for discernment by normal eyesight. Zapruder had an almost perfect angle for detecting the forward movement. But practically everyone who views the Zapruder film at normal motion speed misses the forward motion and only perceives the much slower backward motion that followed. Only a handful of the eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza had a similar angle to Zapruder’s angle. I think that those witnesses would be the likely ones to search for any possible reports of what you are asking about. The other eyewitnesses, with views from other angles, I think would be even less likely to be able to detect such a small and very quick forward motion.

This is a simple question that deserves a reasonable response. But instead, we see an unreasonable relentless attack on Joe.

Asking Joe what the purpose of his question is, is an "unreasonable relentless attack"?

Hilarious! What's wrong with you?

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2022, 07:46:24 PM »

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Question about Dealey Plaza Witnesses.
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2022, 10:02:04 PM »


This is a simple question that deserves a reasonable response. But instead, we see an unreasonable relentless attack on Joe. This is why I believe it best to ignore responses from these attackers. Once in a while I get a wild hair and disregard my own suggestion. But I tend to ignore them the vast majority of the time.

Joe, in my opinion and to the best of my memory, not one eyewitness reported what you are asking about. And I believe that one primary reason for this is that the forward movement was only a short distance and the small fraction of a second that elapsed was too quick for discernment by normal eyesight. Zapruder had an almost perfect angle for detecting the forward movement. But practically everyone who views the Zapruder film at normal motion speed misses the forward motion and only perceives the much slower backward motion that followed. Only a handful of the eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza had a similar angle to Zapruder’s angle. I think that those witnesses would be the likely ones to search for any possible reports of what you are asking about. The other eyewitnesses, with views from other angles, I think would be even less likely to be able to detect such a small and very quick forward motion.

I think you have good advice. In the future, I will try to ignore responses that seem designed to dodge the question, like bringing up unrelated posts from months ago, and just look for answers.

And to clarify, naturally none of the witnesses at Dealey Plaza noticed the 1/18 th of a second forward head movement of two inches between z312-z313. But the movement I was asking about was the backwards motion from z313-z318 of about ten inches (as I recall). It seems that none of the Dealey Plaza witnesses noticed this at the time. So, it seems reasonable that Dan Rather would also not notice this from his one time viewing of the Zapruder film. Despite what others said, I don't think Dan Rather 'knew' ahead of time exactly what he was going to see in the film and, like the Dealey Plaza witnesses, was so shocked by the head explosion that he did not notice or remember the slow (maximum speed of just under 2 mph) motion of the head and torso backwards during z313-z318.

And on another note, some might claim that Dan Rather did see the brief forward motion of 312-312 of two inches. I don't think that would be possible from a one=time, real time, viewing of the Zapruder film. Certainly highly implausible. It was likely the subconscious of Dan Rather figuring out what he should have seen, not what he actually saw. A common sort of error that people make from a one time viewing of an event, whether in person or on film.


 

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