Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?


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Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2022, 05:40:50 AM »
Roger the Dodger vs Bill 'Bonecrusher' Brown

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2022, 05:40:50 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2022, 07:01:12 AM »
Easter is over.

In the interest of clarity, Martin Weidmann, will you state that your (mistaken) opinion is that Ted Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher and then he helped load the body into the ambulance?  This is your position, right?

On my Ted Callaway timeline (between hearing the shots and reporting the shooting on the patrol car radio), Weidmann ridiculed me for having Callaway get to the scene too soon, even going so far as to mock me by saying that I must have Callaway taking a two minute coffee break once he arrived at the scene but before getting on the patrol car radio.  I then explained to Weidmann that first, Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance to which Weidmann insisted that I was wrong about this.

Weidmann, do you agree with the above?

Bill Brown:  Ted Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance upon arriving at the scene and then got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

Martin Weidmann:  Ted Callaway got on the patrol car radio upon arriving at the scene to report the shooting and then helped load the body into the ambulance.

Does this sound right to you, so far?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 07:02:59 AM by Bill Brown »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2022, 01:12:54 PM »
Easter is over.

In the interest of clarity, Martin Weidmann, will you state that your (mistaken) opinion is that Ted Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher and then he helped load the body into the ambulance?  This is your position, right?

On my Ted Callaway timeline (between hearing the shots and reporting the shooting on the patrol car radio), Weidmann ridiculed me for having Callaway get to the scene too soon, even going so far as to mock me by saying that I must have Callaway taking a two minute coffee break once he arrived at the scene but before getting on the patrol car radio.  I then explained to Weidmann that first, Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance to which Weidmann insisted that I was wrong about this.

Weidmann, do you agree with the above?

Bill Brown:  Ted Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance upon arriving at the scene and then got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

Martin Weidmann:  Ted Callaway got on the patrol car radio upon arriving at the scene to report the shooting and then helped load the body into the ambulance.

Does this sound right to you, so far?

Weidmann, do you agree with the above?

Absolutely,except for the "mistaken" part.

Weidmann ridiculed me for having Callaway get to the scene too soon, even going so far as to mock me by saying that I must have Callaway taking a two minute coffee break once he arrived at the scene but before getting on the patrol car radio.

This is a bit of a misrepresentation. I never claimed you had Callaway getting to the scene too soon. What I said was that Callaway did not need more than 3 minutes to get to the Tippit scene. After he saw the killer run/walk down Patton towards Jefferson, he only had to run (and he said he ran) about 2/3 of one block. So, if the killer needed 2 minutes after the shots to get to Jefferson (you can walk the one block distance in about 2,5 minutes), than one minute more for Callaway to make his run, gets him there at 3 minutes after the shots. Not four or five as you have argued in the past.

Having said that, before we start, will you agree to ignore any posts in this thread that are not written by either you or me? Some of the LN clowns are already desperately trying to distract me with false allegations in another thread and I have no doubt some of those trolls will try to derail our conversation with idiotic comments if given half a chance. Also, derogatory comments or direct insults end this conversation instantly, agreed?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 07:16:34 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2022, 01:12:54 PM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2022, 08:50:19 PM »
Weidmann, do you agree with the above?

Absolutely,except for the "mistaken" part.

Weidmann ridiculed me for having Callaway get to the scene too soon, even going so far as to mock me by saying that I must have Callaway taking a two minute coffee break once he arrived at the scene but before getting on the patrol car radio.

This is a bit of a misrepresentation. I never claimed you had Callaway getting to the scene too soon. What I said was that Callaway did not need more than 3 minutes to get to the Tippit scene. After he saw the killer run/walk down Patton towards Jefferson, he only had to run (and he said he ran) about 2/3 of one block. So, if the killer needed 2 minutes after the shots to get to Jefferson (you can walk the one block distance in about 2,5 minutes), than one minute more for Callaway to make his run, gets him there at 3 minutes after the shots. Not four or five as you have argued in the past.

Having said that, before we start, will you agree to ignore any posts in this thread that are not written by either you or me? Some of the LN clowns are already desperately trying to distract me with false allegations in another thread and I have no doubt some of those trolls will try to derail our conversation with idiotic comments if given half a chance. Also, derogatory comments or direct insults end this conversation instantly, agreed?


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Absolutely,except for the "mistaken" part.

Well, we will see about that.


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This is a bit of a misrepresentation. I never claimed you had Callaway getting to the scene too soon. What I said was that Callaway did not need more than 3 minutes to get to the Tippit scene. After he saw the killer run/walk down Patton towards Jefferson, he only had to run (and he said he ran) about 2/3 of one block. So, if the killer needed 2 minutes after the shots to get to Jefferson (you can walk the one block distance in about 2,5 minutes), than one minute more for Callaway to make his run, gets him there at 3 minutes after the shots. Not four or five as you have argued in the past.

I was being generous.  I too believe that Callaway got to the scene no more than three to four minutes after hearing the shots.  Here's the thing... He makes his report on Tippit's squad car radio at 1:19/1:20.  By saying four to five minutes, I was trying to avoid being criticized by CT's for exaggerating the numbers in order to have Callaway at the scene when I needed him to be... for if Callaway was at the scene as quickly as three minutes to four minutes, which is my belief, then that has him hearing the shots closer to the official time estimation as opposed to the shots occurring earlier.  Remember, I said "let's add one minute for error".  Adding that one minute helps the CT timeline, not mine.

If Callaway is at the scene in three minutes, helps load the body into the ambulance and then hops on the squad car radio at 1:19/1:20, then yes, the shooting occurs around 1:15.


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Having said that, before we start, will you agree to ignore any posts in this thread that are not written by either you or me? Some of the LN clowns are already desperately trying to distract me with false allegations in another thread and I have no doubt some of those trolls will try to derail our conversation with idiotic comments if given half a chance.

Yes.  For the purposes of this thread, we reply to each other only.


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Also, derogatory comments or direct insults end this conversation instantly, agreed?

Agreed.  Though I believe, based on past history, you're the one between the two of us who will have to fight to control those urges.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2022, 10:06:57 PM »

Well, we will see about that.


I was being generous.  I too believe that Callaway got to the scene no more than three to four minutes after hearing the shots.  Here's the thing... He makes his report on Tippit's squad car radio at 1:19/1:20.  By saying four to five minutes, I was trying to avoid being criticized by CT's for exaggerating the numbers in order to have Callaway at the scene when I needed him to be... for if Callaway was at the scene as quickly as three minutes to four minutes, which is my belief, then that has him hearing the shots closer to the official time estimation as opposed to the shots occurring earlier.  Remember, I said "let's add one minute for error".  Adding that one minute helps the CT timeline, not mine.

If Callaway is at the scene in three minutes, helps load the body into the ambulance and then hops on the squad car radio at 1:19/1:20, then yes, the shooting occurs around 1:15.


Yes.  For the purposes of this thread, we reply to each other only.


Agreed.  Though I believe, based on past history, you're the one between the two of us who will have to fight to control those urges.

I was being generous.  I too believe that Callaway got to the scene no more than three to four minutes after hearing the shots.

No need to be generous. I am actually convinced that Callaway got to the scene in a little less than three minutes. The reason why I am convinced is that, some years ago, I actually walked and ran the distance that the killer and Callaway walked and ran and I found I could be done in three minutes. Having said this, you are now talking about a wider subject than when Callaway helped to load Tippit into the ambulance. Let's try to resolve that first, shall we?

Here's the thing... He makes his report on Tippit's squad car radio at 1:19/1:20.

I don't believe for a second that the times on the DPD transcripts are correct, making it erroneous to rely on them for anything.  I have an audio recording that starts when Bowley makes his call and ends 4.27 min later. To the best of my knowledge it's a continuous recording. Now, here's the thing; Bowley's call lasted 48 seconds. Exactly 12 seconds later ambulance 602 reports "code 5" confirming it's departure from the funeral home.

According to the official narrative, the Funeral Home received the call for an ambulance at 1:18, but only 20 seconds after 602's code 5 call the DPD dispatcher (who did not call 1:18) calls out "10-4, 603 and 602. 1:19". Now, how is that possible?
If we assume that Bowley started making his call at exactly 1:17:00, the time sequence described above doesn't get us beyond the 1:18:20 mark. However, if Bowley started making his call at around 1:17:40, that would explain the 40 seconds gap, but it would also reduce the time the ambulance had to get to the scene by 40 seconds.

Then, exactly 40 seconds after his initial call the dispatcher calls out "10-4, 605. 1:19", which seems to fit the timeline far better as, according to the actual recording, that second call is made roughly 2 minutes after Bowley started to make his radio call at 1:17. It is however only 6 seconds before Callaway gets on the DPD radio.

So, the first thing we need to resolve is which is the correct 1:19 call. This is important because the 40 seconds between the first and the second call makes all the difference for determining the correct sequence of events, as I will show later on in this discussion. One thing we can safely rule out, based on the actual recordings is, IMO, that Callaway made his call at or after the 1:20 mark.

Do you have an opinion about which 1:19 call is the correct one?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 11:32:25 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2022, 06:26:23 AM »
I was being generous.  I too believe that Callaway got to the scene no more than three to four minutes after hearing the shots.

No need to be generous. I am actually convinced that Callaway got to the scene in a little less than three minutes. The reason why I am convinced is that, some years ago, I actually walked and ran the distance that the killer and Callaway walked and ran and I found I could be done in three minutes. Having said this, you are now talking about a wider subject than when Callaway helped to load Tippit into the ambulance. Let's try to resolve that first, shall we?

Here's the thing... He makes his report on Tippit's squad car radio at 1:19/1:20.

I don't believe for a second that the times on the DPD transcripts are correct, making it erroneous to rely on them for anything.  I have an audio recording that starts when Bowley makes his call and ends 4.27 min later. To the best of my knowledge it's a continuous recording. Now, here's the thing; Bowley's call lasted 48 seconds. Exactly 12 seconds later ambulance 602 reports "code 5" confirming it's departure from the funeral home.

According to the official narrative, the Funeral Home received the call for an ambulance at 1:18, but only 20 seconds after 602's code 5 call the DPD dispatcher (who did not call 1:18) calls out "10-4, 603 and 602. 1:19". Now, how is that possible?
If we assume that Bowley started making his call at exactly 1:17:00, the time sequence described above doesn't get us beyond the 1:18:20 mark. However, if Bowley started making his call at around 1:17:40, that would explain the 40 seconds gap, but it would also reduce the time the ambulance had to get to the scene by 40 seconds.

Then, exactly 40 seconds after his initial call the dispatcher calls out "10-4, 605. 1:19", which seems to fit the timeline far better as, according to the actual recording, that second call is made roughly 2 minutes after Bowley started to make his radio call at 1:17. It is however only 6 seconds before Callaway gets on the DPD radio.

So, the first thing we need to resolve is which is the correct 1:19 call. This is important because the 40 seconds between the first and the second call makes all the difference for determining the correct sequence of events, as I will show later on in this discussion. One thing we can safely rule out, based on the actual recordings is, IMO, that Callaway made his call at or after the 1:20 mark.

Do you have an opinion about which 1:19 call is the correct one?


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I don't believe for a second that the times on the DPD transcripts are correct, making it erroneous to rely on them for anything.

First... What is your opinion on the maximum that the DPD transcripts/tapes could be off?  Two minutes maximum?  Three minutes maximum?  More?


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If we assume that Bowley started making his call at exactly 1:17:00, the time sequence described above doesn't get us beyond the 1:18:20 mark. However, if Bowley started making his call at around 1:17:40, that would explain the 40 seconds gap, but it would also reduce the time the ambulance had to get to the scene by 40 seconds.

Bowley begins his call on the squad car radio at 1:17:40, as opposed to 1:17:00.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 07:21:49 AM by Bill Brown »

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2022, 06:26:23 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2022, 07:12:27 AM »
Secondly, I've stated many times that Callaway saw the killer run south on Patton for the full block and then watched the killer turn west onto Jefferson; nothing about the alley.  My Callaway timeline has him watching the killer get to Jefferson and head west before he (Callaway) starts to make his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene.  I think it was in the cop-killer thread, you said this:

Except he didn't go by the office at all, but instead, according to Callaway, ran down an alley halfway down Patton, between 10th and Jefferson.

What made you say this?

If Callaway saw the killer run into the alley halfway down Patton, then Callaway would begin his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene quite a few seconds earlier (since the killer would reach the alley halfway down Patton versus taking longer while traveling the full length of the block down Patton before reaching Jefferson).

Callaway said he asked the fleeing gunman "Hey man, what in the hell is going on?"  This took place when the gunman was roughly fifty-six feet from Callaway (basically across the street from Callaway).  If you know where Callaway was standing (and you say that you do know), this places the fleeing gunman on Patton well past the alley already.

Callaway testified to this:

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.
Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

In 1986, in the London trial, Callaway said this, when describing the path taken by the fleeing gunman:

"He (the killer) said something to me which I didn't understand.  Then he proceeded to run toward Jefferson, through this front yard (pointing on a map to the front yard at the corner of Patton and Jefferson) right here and proceeded west on Jefferson Street."
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 07:14:47 AM by Bill Brown »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2022, 09:28:09 AM »

First... What is your opinion on the maximum that the DPD transcripts/tapes could be off?  Two minutes maximum?  Three minutes maximum?  More?


Bowley begins his call on the squad car radio at 1:17:40, as opposed to 1:17:00.

First... What is your opinion on the maximum that the DPD transcripts/tapes could be off?  Two minutes maximum?  Three minutes maximum?  More?

No way to say for sure. J.C. Bowles told the HSCA that the clocks used by the dispatchers could be off by some two minutes from a master clock on the telephone room wall, which itself only provided what he called "official time".

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock.

He also said;

When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

and pointed out that the time calls made by the dispatchers could be different by a minute or so from "actual" time.

In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart

So, it's anybody's guess by how much the time calls of the dispatchers differed from real time. But regardless of how much time it is exactly, this information alone shows IMO that the time calls can not be relied upon.


Bowley begins his call on the squad car radio at 1:17:40, as opposed to 1:17:00.

I take it this means that you are going with the first 1:19 call as being the right one, is that correct? What is the basis for this conclusion?


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Re: Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2022, 09:28:09 AM »


 

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