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Author Topic: Colors of Blue and Gold  (Read 61261 times)

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #160 on: March 23, 2023, 12:27:32 PM »
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I understand that these tanks were manufactured back in the 1940s and 1950s.

As Russia's tank loses mount up much faster than current production can match. Russia has lost about 1,600 tanks in a year of fighting. It can only manufacture about 250 tanks per year. Hence, the Russian tank fleet is getting ever more obsolete over time, with older and older models which were not part of the initial invasion in Feburary 2022.Before this war is over, we may be seeing tank battles between Ukrainian Abrams, Leopard 2 and 1's going against Russian T-34s and T-26s. :)


Article on Russian tank losses and Russian tank production:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/02/17/the-russian-army-could-run-out-of-tanks-in-a-few-years-what-happens-then/?sh=75da95202061

As I recall, the Russians did pretty well with those tanks in the 1940s.  Putin has tried to fight this war on the cheap.  Using prisoners and ill trained soldiers from the hinterlands.  The most expendable types from a political perspective.  Once he loses patience, the Russians will overrun Ukraine very quickly.  Ukraine Joe has already created an alliance between Russia and China with his dangerous bungling of this situation.  China has an inexhaustible supply of weapons.  How long does it go on before the US makes any effort to broker a settlement?  There are estimates of over 100K dead Ukrainians already.  Nearly $200 billion has been sunk into this effort from the US.  How much is enough?  What is the end game?  Same questions that were never answered in Vietnam and Afghanistan.  All I've seen is that the Russians must surrender and turn Putin over for war crimes.  Not likely. 

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #160 on: March 23, 2023, 12:27:32 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #161 on: March 23, 2023, 01:49:19 PM »
As I recall, the Russians did pretty well with those tanks in the 1940s.  Putin has tried to fight this war on the cheap.  Using prisoners and ill trained soldiers from the hinterlands.  The most expendable types from a political perspective.  Once he loses patience, the Russians will overrun Ukraine very quickly.  Ukraine Joe has already created an alliance between Russia and China with his dangerous bungling of this situation.  China has an inexhaustible supply of weapons.  How long does it go on before the US makes any effort to broker a settlement?  There are estimates of over 100K dead Ukrainians already.  Nearly $200 billion has been sunk into this effort from the US.  How much is enough?  What is the end game?  Same questions that were never answered in Vietnam and Afghanistan.  All I've seen is that the Russians must surrender and turn Putin over for war crimes.  Not likely.

As I recall, the Russians did pretty well with those tanks in the 1940s.

You recall that, do you? Really?

Oh well, in the middle ages the knights did pretty well with swords and bow and arrow.....

Putin has tried to fight this war on the cheap.  Using prisoners and ill trained soldiers from the hinterlands.  The most expendable types from a political perspective.

Hilarious... Where do you get this "insight"?

Once he loses patience, the Russians will overrun Ukraine very quickly.

HAHAHAHAHA... they tried it already and they couldn't make it work. You really need to rely less on Russian (i.e. Fox "news") propaganda. The Russians are completely pinned down and only attack now by firing missiles into residential areas, most of which are intercepted.

China has an inexhaustible supply of weapons.

Really? And you know this how? China has been claiming Taiwan as it's own for decades now and they haven't tried once to invade it, because of the consequences. No way China is going to risk all it's commercial interests in the West for Putin's sake. Xi Jinping outplayed Putin completely by getting him to sign more favorable trade deals with China. Xi also made it beyond clear that China has no interest in getting involved in the Ukraine conflict by supplying weapons. The economic price China would have the pay would be too great.

China may have an "inexhaustible supply of weapons" but what they don't have and won't get is the latest technology and most advanced computer chips, as the E.U. has already stopped giving ASML export licences for selling such technology to China.

But you admiration for Putin and Xi, two of the biggest enemies of the U.S., is duly noted.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 03:12:05 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #162 on: March 23, 2023, 03:20:40 PM »

As I recall, the Russians did pretty well with those tanks in the 1940s.  Putin has tried to fight this war on the cheap.  Using prisoners and ill trained soldiers from the hinterlands.  The most expendable types from a political perspective.  Once he loses patience, the Russians will overrun Ukraine very quickly.  Ukraine Joe has already created an alliance between Russia and China with his dangerous bungling of this situation.  China has an inexhaustible supply of weapons.  How long does it go on before the US makes any effort to broker a settlement?  There are estimates of over 100K dead Ukrainians already.  Nearly $200 billion has been sunk into this effort from the US.  How much is enough?  What is the end game?  Same questions that were never answered in Vietnam and Afghanistan.  All I've seen is that the Russians must surrender and turn Putin over for war crimes.  Not likely.

Not that well in the 1940s. Certainly not the T-26s. The T-34 is vastly overrated in the minds of the public. It's kill to loss ratio, even against Panzer IIIs and IVs, was terrible. And about 2.0 to 1.0 against the greatly underrated Sherman tank during the Korean war.

On paper China could send plenty of arms to Russia. But why reinforce failure? Why risk China's reputation by gambling that Russia won't waste the arms China sends, making both Russia and China seem weak? And could China really send more arms than the west can send?

On paper Russia could swap Ukraine. Just as on paper Russia could swap Germany and Austria-Hungry in World War I. Wars are not decided on paper. The years of mismanagement of the Imperial Russian army and the current Russian army, cannot be fixed with the snap of the fingers. Russia is already straining to wage the maximum conventional war. It fears using conscription more than it has. And more conscription will take away workers, reducing its already inadequate armament production.

Russia outnumbers Ukraine only 3 to 1 in population. And a disportionite number of them are not of military age. The Russian population is an ageing population without enough young people of military age. In the past Russia had military success, but with a much stronger advantage in military age males than it has now.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #162 on: March 23, 2023, 03:20:40 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #163 on: March 23, 2023, 04:59:13 PM »
As I recall, the Russians did pretty well with those tanks in the 1940s.

You recall that, do you? Really?

Oh well, in the middle ages the knights did pretty well with swords and bow and arrow.....



Hilarious.  In which Martin from "Europe" equates tanks used to defeat Hitler six decades ago with medieval weapons from 600 years ago.  Great contribution.  Yes, a T-34 tank is the same as a sword.  HA HA HA.  Keep them coming. 

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #164 on: March 23, 2023, 05:50:18 PM »
Hilarious.  In which Martin from "Europe" equates tanks used to defeat Hitler six decades ago with medieval weapons from 600 years ago.  Great contribution.  Yes, a T-34 tank is the same as a sword.  HA HA HA.  Keep them coming.

I knew when I wrote it that it would go right over your head..... and it did!  :D

The point I was making is a simple one. A nearly 60 80 year old tank is pretty worthless compared to modern day weapon systems, just like swords and bow and arrows stopped being useful when they started to use guns and cannons.

A T-34 tank belongs in a museum and not on a modern battleground. Get it now, or am I still going too fast for you?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 06:22:29 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #164 on: March 23, 2023, 05:50:18 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #165 on: March 23, 2023, 09:38:11 PM »
Russia outnumbers Ukraine only 3 to 1 in population. And a disportionite number of them are not of military age. The Russian population is an ageing population without enough young people of military age. In the past Russia had military success, but with a much stronger advantage in military age males than it has now.

Russia and Ukraine have nearly identical age demographics. Both are former Soviet countries. But Russia has three times more people than Ukraine does.



https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-demography-of-war-ukraine-vs-russia


The bottom-line is, Russia has more manpower and an unlimited supply of weapons. Anything is possible but short of an external event, like a political collapse for Putin in Russia for example, it's unlikely that Ukraine wins this war of attrition.

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #166 on: March 23, 2023, 09:53:09 PM »
Russia and Ukraine have nearly identical age demographics. Both are former Soviet countries. But Russia has three times more people than Ukraine does.



https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-demography-of-war-ukraine-vs-russia


The bottom-line is, Russia has more manpower and an unlimited supply of weapons. Anything is possible but short of an external event, like a political collapse for Putin in Russia for example, it's unlikely that Ukraine wins this war of attrition.

Who died and made you the expert?

Fact is that Russia is firing more missles at Ukraine on a daily basis than they can replace. The same goes for tanks. The latest report is that they lost 1600 tanks and can only produce 250 a year. Add to this that, because of the embargo, they are running low on critical parts for their weapon systems where Ukraine is getting fresh supplies on a regular bases and it doesn't matter anymore how much more manpower (i.e. cannonfodder) Russia has, the bottom line is that they can not win this war.

Maybe Ukraine can't either but they have something the Russians don't; resolve to save their country! This should appeal to the extreme right who claim to be all about "saving America" but somehow they don't seem to be interested.

Russia should have learned from the disaster in Afganistan that it's one thing to invade a country. It's quite another to hold on to it when the locals don't want you there!

In this case, Ukraine has the support of the entire Western World and Nato. There is no way Putin can come out on top and the sooner he understands that, the better it will be for all the world.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 11:00:51 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #166 on: March 23, 2023, 09:53:09 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #167 on: March 23, 2023, 11:44:43 PM »
Fact is that Russia is firing more missles at Ukraine on a daily basis than they can replace.

Source?

We've been hearing that Russia would "run out of missiles" since the first few weeks of the war but it hasn't happened yet.


The same goes for tanks. The latest report is that they lost 1600 tanks and can only produce 250 a year.

Russia started the war with over 12,000 tanks. Ukraine started the war with over 2000 tanks.

12,000 Tanks: Yes Russia, Has More Armor Than America
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/12000-tanks-yes-russia-has-more-armor-america-169274

Ukraine, not Russia, is begging other countries to send tanks and ammo.



Add to this that, because of the embargo, they are running low on critical parts for their weapon systems where Ukraine is getting fresh supplies on a regular bases and it doesn't matter anymore how much more manpower (i.e. cannonfodder) Russia has, the bottom line is that they can not win this war.

Again, Ukraine, which no longer has a domestic defense industry (due to the war) is in a much worse position than Russia. The aid from other countries creates logistical problems as Ukraine doesn't have the replacement parts to maintain and repair non-Soviet or Russian weapons. So when hardware breaks down, it gets sent to Poland for maintenance.

The sanctions are an obstacle for Russia but it's not an obstacle that can't be overcome via trade with China or buying supplies from the Black market. Economic sanctions are a notoriously ineffective tool.

Why Sanctions Too Often Fail
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/why-sanctions-too-often-fail


Maybe Ukraine can't either but they have something the Russians don't; resolve to save their country! This should appeal to the extreme right who claim to be all about "saving America" but somehow they don't seem to be interested.

Ukraine's Resolve may be enough to keep the Russians from conquering all of Ukraine but it likely won't be enough to prevent Putin from taking 1/4 or 1/3 of their territory.

There's strength in numbers and Russia has the numbers in manpower and military hardware.

It's totally tragic what is happening to Ukraine but short of direct intervention by NATO, I don't see a way for them to win this war via military force.