Colors of Blue and Gold


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Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2022, 02:03:23 PM »
It's not wasted money. Just like Hitler, Putin needs to be stopped. And sending weapons to Ukraine seems to be a very cost effective way to do it. Yes, it costs money to stop Putin. Just like it cost money to stop Hitler. But it needs to be done.

In the long run, Ukraine will be better off suffering the war damage, than living under the boot of Russia. There is no hope for them if that happens. And adding Ukraine to Russia will only give them more resources, more draftees, and make Russia an even bigger threat to Europe and the world.

And so far you have dodged my question.

Why did the recent reverses on the battlefield for Russia spur you to start complaining about our expenditures. You were pretty silent during the months of stalemate. Is it possible you are more concerned about Russia failing than our spending money?


The US has no vested interest in this conflict.  The Russians are in the wrong but that doesn't justify an endless commitment of US taxpayer funds to this conflict.  There are conflicts and wrongs committed in many places around the world in which the US does not intervene because we have no vested interest.  You have been sold a bill of good from the same warmongers who brought us Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.  Endless foreign war for no purpose.  Ukraine has suffered far more by the focus on escalation than resolution of this conflict.  There is no end in sight.  What is the end game here?  The areas occupied by Russia have many citizens that prefer Russian rule over Ukranian.  They have been fighting the Ukranians for independence for years in these regions.   The DC warmongers want such a conflict to extend for years.  It is their ticket to spend money - billions.  That money gets cycled through industries that kickback contributions to the politicians.  Republicans are as much as fault as anyone.  There was a time when leftists were on to this trick and opposed such wars.  Sadly, those days are over.  Leftists have abandoned anti-war and pro-freedom of speech for power.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 02:06:09 PM by Richard Smith »

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2022, 02:03:23 PM »


Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2022, 09:37:35 PM »

The US has no vested interest in this conflict.

Yes we do. It's not just a part of Ukraine that's at stake. It's not just all of Ukraine that's at stake. It's at least all of Europe up to the Rhine River.

He have as much at stake against Putin as we did against Hitler.

The Russians are in the wrong but that doesn't justify an endless commitment of US taxpayer funds to this conflict.  There are conflicts and wrongs committed in many places around the world in which the US does not intervene because we have no vested interest.  You have been sold a bill of good from the same warmongers who brought us Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.  Endless foreign war for no purpose.  Ukraine has suffered far more by the focus on escalation than resolution of this conflict.  There is no end in sight.  What is the end game here?  The areas occupied by Russia have many citizens that prefer Russian rule over Ukranian.  They have been fighting the Ukranians for independence for years in these regions.   The DC warmongers want such a conflict to extend for years.  It is their ticket to spend money - billions.  That money gets cycled through industries that kickback contributions to the politicians.  Republicans are as much as fault as anyone.  There was a time when leftists were on to this trick and opposed such wars.  Sadly, those days are over.  Leftists have abandoned anti-war and pro-freedom of speech for power.

Not much at stake in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. But Ukraine is a different matter.

And our expenditures are not huge. Far less than that spent on Vietnam, or Afghanistan, or Iraq. Far less than that spent against Hitler's Germany. Naturally, stopping Russia is going to take some money. Your not going to have it done for 13.5 million dollars. But for much less money spent on Vietnam, or Afghanistan, or Iraq, we can make a big different.

If we don't do this, we are in big trouble. With success in Ukraine, the next dictator of Russia will likely want his own special accomplishment, like the Baltics. And so it goes. And next time, be a lot more dangerous. If the mere threat of nuclear weapons is enough to cause the West to back down, how could a real demonstration fail? And China will take encouragement with regards to Taiwan. And North Korea has nuclear weapons as well. How could they not be encouraged if we back down now?

You should make it clear that you don't think Ukraine, the Baltic States, Poland, Germany, The Low Countries, Taiwan and South Korea are worth spending a few billion dollars a month. Maybe you are right. But you should make yourself clear. The U. S. military budget is something like 773 billion a year. If Russia is beaten, I think this amount could be reduced in the coming years. I see spending a small fraction of this on Ukraine now is a good investment. Yes, there is no guarantee this will stop Russia. There are no guarantees in war. But if this works, we could save a 100 billion or more each year, I should think, if the threat from Russia is reduced. But if we emboldened Russia, China and South Korea, we could never spend enough to make up for that.

Let's keep going a few more months and see how the under equipped Russians hold out in the winter. The under equipped Russians did not do so well in the winter of 1939-1940 in Finland and the same may be true in the coming months. Russians are not immune to the cold, not when dressed and fed poorly. Maybe the issue will be largely decided before a new Congress comes in at the end of January. We will see.

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2022, 04:45:12 AM »

MAGA Republicans say that we should not get involved in stopping tyranny from spreading abroad. We should concentrate on America. If they were sincere they would also urge us to vote Democratic. To stop the spread of Authoritarianism in America.

The truth is that MAGA Republicans are no more concerned about the spread of Authoritarianism in America than they are over it's spread in Europe. Deep down, they see the spread of Authoritarianism as a good thing. If Putin succeeds, it is a good omen. It may mean that Authoritarianism is unstoppable. It may mean that Trump is unstoppable. They betray this in many ways, like Trump praising Putin on many occasions. He really wants Putin to succeed. And also in their calls to stop spending on Ukraine. Particularly right after Ukraine successes on the battlefield.

The Russians have spent more on equipping the Ukrainians with weapons than we have. In the form of weapons captured on the battlefield by the Ukrainians. It would not be a bad thing if we were to become as 'generous' as the Russians when it comes to equipping the Ukrainians. But I'm not asking for that. Just to maintain the level we are spending now.

The money we have spent on Ukraine is a fraction of the money we spend each year on defense. I say it is a good investment, unlike the much larger sums spent on Afghanistan and Iraq. We should stop spending money reinforcing failure and start spending it on supporting success, for a people committed to democracy. I say we should spend it on Ukraine.

The next few months are critical. Let's see if the ill equipped Russians will freeze in the winter, just like the ill equipped Russians did in the Winter War against Finland in 1939-1940. Sure, the Russians can, and have, do what the Germans did in 1941, steal from the civilians. But there is only so much food in the sliver of Ukraine territory that they occupy. This territory cannot produce an unlimited amount of food. Sooner or later the Russians, without enough food supplies from Russia, will either have to advance into new territory, or fall back into Russia, or starve. Let's see what the next few months bring.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2022, 04:45:12 AM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2022, 07:11:21 PM »
MAGA Republicans say that we should not get involved in stopping tyranny from spreading abroad. We should concentrate on America. If they were sincere they would also urge us to vote Democratic. To stop the spread of Authoritarianism in America.

The truth is that MAGA Republicans are no more concerned about the spread of Authoritarianism in America than they are over it's spread in Europe. Deep down, they see the spread of Authoritarianism as a good thing. If Putin succeeds, it is a good omen. It may mean that Authoritarianism is unstoppable. It may mean that Trump is unstoppable. They betray this in many ways, like Trump praising Putin on many occasions. He really wants Putin to succeed. And also in their calls to stop spending on Ukraine. Particularly right after Ukraine successes on the battlefield.

The Russians have spent more on equipping the Ukrainians with weapons than we have. In the form of weapons captured on the battlefield by the Ukrainians. It would not be a bad thing if we were to become as 'generous' as the Russians when it comes to equipping the Ukrainians. But I'm not asking for that. Just to maintain the level we are spending now.

The money we have spent on Ukraine is a fraction of the money we spend each year on defense. I say it is a good investment, unlike the much larger sums spent on Afghanistan and Iraq. We should stop spending money reinforcing failure and start spending it on supporting success, for a people committed to democracy. I say we should spend it on Ukraine.

The next few months are critical. Let's see if the ill equipped Russians will freeze in the winter, just like the ill equipped Russians did in the Winter War against Finland in 1939-1940. Sure, the Russians can, and have, do what the Germans did in 1941, steal from the civilians. But there is only so much food in the sliver of Ukraine territory that they occupy. This territory cannot produce an unlimited amount of food. Sooner or later the Russians, without enough food supplies from Russia, will either have to advance into new territory, or fall back into Russia, or starve. Let's see what the next few months bring.

Who has locked up political opponents and ended free speech in this country with Stasi-like efficiency?  It's not the Republicans.  How are the poll numbers looking for Dems who have controlled the WH and Congress for the last two years?  Most Americans couldn't find Ukraine on a map.  They are more concerned with the war zone in their own cities in which hundreds are being shot every weekend.  Fifty this last weekend in Chicago alone.  It's safer in Ukraine than any major US city.  How many billions are the corrupt establishment sending to the address this American problem?  How is that conspiracy perpetuated by Old Joe and Stacey Abrams working in Georgia where they railed about Jim Crow voter suppression laws?  The last report is that there is a 150% INCREASE in early voting in this midterm election.  Where are the apologies for these lies after they have been proven demonstrably false?  Russian collusion, Hunter's laptop the product of Russian disinformation, Jim Crow 2.0?  Where is the apology about things going well in Afghanistan for 20 years?  Years from now after Ukraine is a smoldering ruin, we will be asked to pay to rebuild it.  Nothing will be gained from trillions spent and that is assuming that Old Joe and his cast of incompetents hired based on race and gender haven't managed to bungle this into WWIII.

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2022, 01:52:09 PM »
Yes we do. It's not just a part of Ukraine that's at stake. It's not just all of Ukraine that's at stake. It's at least all of Europe up to the Rhine River.

He have as much at stake against Putin as we did against Hitler.

Not much at stake in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq. But Ukraine is a different matter.



There is nothing at stake.  How much money are Mexico, Iceland, Chile sending to Ukraine?  Zero.  It's always the US that gets drawn into these endless foreign conflicts and fronts the trillions of dollars.  Why do we rush to be the caretaker of the world?  It's not because the US is protecting its interest or has any altruist motive that other countries do not.  Our corrupt politicians have figured out it is a great way to funnel money to their cronies who keep them in office.  A vicious cycle.  They lied about progress in Afghanistan for two decades to keep the money flowing, panicked when that came to an end, but created a new fake cause to turn the money back on in Ukraine. 

The historic parallel in Ukraine is not Hitler but WWI.  WWI began when countries were drawn into war through alliances that began with a regional conflict in which none of the major players had any real interest.  That is exactly what is happening in the Ukraine.  The US and many other countries are being drawn into a regional conflict that could quickly escalate to a global conflict. 

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2022, 10:57:33 PM »

We are stuck in a quagmire. A stalemate between Russia and Ukraine that will go on and on.

Reality Check:

Ukraine has just retaken Kherson.

Last month Russia claimed it now owns four Oblasts formerly belonging to Ukraine. An Oblast is a region of Ukraine, sort of equivalent to a U. S. state. However, Russia only occupied parts of these Oblasts. And only one administrative center (like a state capitol), Kherson. And now they occupy zero administrative centers.

Kherson was the largest city Russia was able to take. And now it no longer has it.

Since Ukraine started its counter offensive earlier this year, they have retaken 50 per cent, 50 per cent of the territory Russia seized in the late winter and early spring of this year.

This is like no stalemate I have ever heard of in history. And typically, when a nation reverses the tide, it doesn't take as much time to regain the second half as it's territory as it took to regain the first. And I don't think this time is going to be an exception.

Unenthusiastic draftees, without training, told to bring their own winter clothes, which are stolen from them when they report for duty. And winter is coming. These 300,000 fellows are going to be the ones who stop the victorious Ukraine army in it's tracks? I don't think so. The Spartan 300 had better odds.

Stranger. Go tell the Russians that obedient to Putin's will, we lie here. And the sooner Putin joins us the better off Russia will be.


JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2022, 10:57:33 PM »


Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2022, 08:08:22 PM »
We are stuck in a quagmire. A stalemate between Russia and Ukraine that will go on and on.

Reality Check:

Ukraine has just retaken Kherson.

Last month Russia claimed it now owns four Oblasts formerly belonging to Ukraine. An Oblast is a region of Ukraine, sort of equivalent to a U. S. state. However, Russia only occupied parts of these Oblasts. And only one administrative center (like a state capitol), Kherson. And now they occupy zero administrative centers.

Kherson was the largest city Russia was able to take. And now it no longer has it.

Since Ukraine started its counter offensive earlier this year, they have retaken 50 per cent, 50 per cent of the territory Russia seized in the late winter and early spring of this year.

This is like no stalemate I have ever heard of in history. And typically, when a nation reverses the tide, it doesn't take as much time to regain the second half as it's territory as it took to regain the first. And I don't think this time is going to be an exception.

Unenthusiastic draftees, without training, told to bring their own winter clothes, which are stolen from them when they report for duty. And winter is coming. These 300,000 fellows are going to be the ones who stop the victorious Ukraine army in it's tracks? I don't think so. The Spartan 300 had better odds.

Stranger. Go tell the Russians that obedient to Putin's will, we lie here. And the sooner Putin joins us the better off Russia will be.


The conflict in these regions has been going on for decades.  In some cases, much longer.  It would continue even if the Russians left 100% of the occupied areas.  That is because much of the population in those areas are pro-Russian.  They were fighting for independence from Ukraine even before the Russians intervened.  The comic book narrative provided by the US media is just an extension of the "war on democracy" narrative that they used against Trump.  The leftist support this endless war because it can be used to further their anti-Trump narrative that there is a struggle going on for democracy.  Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe ruled by oligarchs.  Ironically, very similar to the US. There is a long and complex history that extends beyond concluding Ukraine "good" and Russia "bad."  Superficial understanding of these regional conflicts was a recipe for disaster in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.  It is being repeated again.  Just sending lots of bombs to destroy the country and kill a lot of people will not promote democracy. 

Online Joe Elliott

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2022, 01:20:53 AM »

The conflict in these regions has been going on for decades.  In some cases, much longer.  It would continue even if the Russians left 100% of the occupied areas.  That is because much of the population in those areas are pro-Russian.  They were fighting for independence from Ukraine even before the Russians intervened.  The comic book narrative provided by the US media is just an extension of the "war on democracy" narrative that they used against Trump.  The leftist support this endless war because it can be used to further their anti-Trump narrative that there is a struggle going on for democracy.  Ukraine is one of the most corrupt countries in Europe ruled by oligarchs.  Ironically, very similar to the US. There is a long and complex history that extends beyond concluding Ukraine "good" and Russia "bad."  Superficial understanding of these regional conflicts was a recipe for disaster in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq.  It is being repeated again.  Just sending lots of bombs to destroy the country and kill a lot of people will not promote democracy.

The Ukrainians aren't destroying a country. Russia is the one trying to do so.

Question:

How are your arguments fundamentally different than the arguments made by the "America Firsters" of the 1930's and early 1940's. They argued that sending military aid aboard won't help defend Democracy.


But they were wrong. Just as you are wrong.

As usual, just like CTers often do, you will most likely dodge my only question.

Sending lots of military aid to a people who support Democracy has promoted Democracy. In the right circumstances. When the people under siege support Democracy. The aid sent to defeat Nazi Germany and Japan allowed peoples who wanted to establish Democracy to establish it. And Democracy still stands there to this day. In France, Belgian, Denmark, etc. and even including Germany and Japan. Because even Germany and Japan were not totally filled with Nazis and Military fanatics. Both countries had tried Democracy and had millions who wanted to give it another go.

In contrast, spending on Afghanistan and Iraq is pouring money into a black hole because the people of those countries, for the most part, do not and never had supported Democracy.

Does Ukraine really contain powerful people who want to destroy the newly establish Democracy of Ukraine? It sure does. Some of them want to become the Putin, or the Trump, of Ukraine, or to serve such a man, and be rewarded. But the people of Ukraine, who, if successful against Putin, will succeed against these lesser Putins. Just as the people in France, Belgian, Denmark, etc. who after the World War II managed to defeat the dictator want-a-be in their countries. The people of Ukraine deserves this chance. And I'm betting on them, both during this war, and the coming internal war afterwards.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2022, 01:20:53 AM »


 

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