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Author Topic: Colors of Blue and Gold  (Read 51353 times)

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2022, 02:29:52 PM »
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How long can people believe in the benevolence of American politicians and Armies when there are zero historical examples

The Russians are undoubtedly in the moral wrong in this war.  Not every wrong can or should be righted by the US military, though.  And you are correct that are many instances of US politicians promoting lies to fund endless wars under false pretenses (Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq).  Sadly only two modern US presidents kept the US out of wars (Eisenhower getting us out of Korea and Trump laying the policy groundwork to end the endless war in Afghanistan).  It is overstatement, however, to suggest that the US military. has never done any good. The US did provide substantial support to Russia during WWII (and Russia was arguably as bad as Germany in that it invaded Poland as well in 1939 and committed all manner of atrocities).  The US military did liberate western Europe from the Nazis and provide a buffer from future Communist aggression.  Defeating the Japanese in the Pacific and Asia laid the groundwork to end decades of colonization and abuse of those regions by Europe and others.

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2022, 02:29:52 PM »


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2022, 02:43:25 PM »
The Russians are undoubtedly in the moral wrong in this war.  Not every wrong can or should be righted by the US military, though.  And you are correct that are many instances of US politicians promoting lies to fund endless wars under false pretenses (Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq).  Sadly only two modern US presidents kept the US out of wars (Eisenhower getting us out of Korea and Trump laying the policy groundwork to end the endless war in Afghanistan).  It is overstatement, however, to suggest that the US military. has never done any good. The US did provide substantial support to Russia during WWII (and Russia was arguably as bad as Germany in that it invaded Poland as well in 1939 and committed all manner of atrocities).  The US military did liberate western Europe from the Nazis and provide a buffer from future Communist aggression.  Defeating the Japanese in the Pacific and Asia laid the groundwork to end decades of colonization and abuse of those regions by Europe and others.

We won WWII with the help of the Soviets who lost over 20 million people in the war. The Soviets helped on Pacific front too along with Mao's China.

We created a buffer in eastern Europe and beat the Soviets to the moon with the help of former Nazis.

We won the Cold War (against the Soviets) with the help of Communist China.

We helped Islamic extremists (who later created Al Qaeda and the Taliban) drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

In Libya and Syria, we backed Islamic extremists in their attempts to overthrow secular Arab dictators.

Since 2014 in Ukraine, we've helped Ukraine, one of the most corrupt countries in Europe (and the world), counter Russia's attacks on their national sovereignty.

I raise these examples to make the point that this stuff in America's recent history isn't always morally clear or Black and White. Often times, our leaders have collaborated with bad guys to take down other bad guys. And often times, there have been unintended consequences of our policies.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 02:44:43 PM by Jon Banks »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2022, 07:08:13 PM »
The Russians are undoubtedly in the moral wrong in this war.  Not every wrong can or should be righted by the US military, though.  And you are correct that are many instances of US politicians promoting lies to fund endless wars under false pretenses (Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq).  Sadly only two modern US presidents kept the US out of wars (Eisenhower getting us out of Korea and Trump laying the policy groundwork to end the endless war in Afghanistan).  It is overstatement, however, to suggest that the US military. has never done any good. The US did provide substantial support to Russia during WWII (and Russia was arguably as bad as Germany in that it invaded Poland as well in 1939 and committed all manner of atrocities).  The US military did liberate western Europe from the Nazis and provide a buffer from future Communist aggression.  Defeating the Japanese in the Pacific and Asia laid the groundwork to end decades of colonization and abuse of those regions by Europe and others.
I think the people in Germany, Japan, South Korea and other places around the world are thankful for the American military and efforts that freed their countries from tyranny. And many more are thankful today for that continued presence that keeps them free. Taiwan, Ukraine, South Korea for example.

The claim that America power has never done any good cannot withstand the scrutiny of history.

The Soviets lost so many people because they were allied with Hitler and then were caught unprepared when he invaded it. And they didn't give a damned about the suffering of their people. They just let them be slaughtered. Without American military help they never would have defeated Hitler. The Red Army was a collection of murderers and rapists that other than the Nazis, were probably the most evil military in world history. I'll thank the Russian people for their sacrifice but the government and the Red Army deserve none. Stalin deserve credit? The rapists in the Red Army? Like hell.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 07:35:03 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2022, 07:08:13 PM »


Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2022, 07:47:20 PM »
"Bloodlands", the history of Eastern Europe before and after WWII by historian Timothy Snyder:

"Snyder seeks to show that interaction between the Nazi and Soviet regimes is crucial to telling the story of this bloodshed. He posits that early Soviet support for the Warsaw Uprising against the Nazi occupation was followed by an unwillingness to aid the uprising because the Soviets were willing to have the Nazis eliminate potential sources of resistance to a later Soviet occupation. Snyder states that this is an example of interaction that may have led to many more deaths than might have been the case if each regime had been acting independently."

The Soviets allowed, indeed welcomed, the Nazis slaughter of the people in Eastern Europe in order to make it easier for them to occupy those nations later.


Offline Jon Banks

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2022, 09:46:59 PM »
I think the people in Germany, Japan, South Korea and other places around the world are thankful for the American military and efforts that freed their countries from tyranny. And many more are thankful today for that continued presence that keeps them free. Taiwan, Ukraine, South Korea for example.

The claim that America power has never done any good cannot withstand the scrutiny of history.


I see that you omitted Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc.

I agree that we've used our power for good at times. Where we probably disagree is on the intentions of our policies.

I don't think any nation, including the US, does things abroad for purely altruistic reasons. There's always a catch or benefit to our own geopolitical goals.

As for Ukraine and Europe overall, do you think our policies are entirely altruistic? Or is the policy part of a broader strategy to keep Europe dependent on the US (which economically benefits us)? It could be a mix of both.

I just find it hard to believe that the fact that we're benefitting economically from Europe's economic woes (due to their de-coupling economically from Russia) is a coincidence or accident.

Politico: Europe accuses US of profiting from war
https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 09:54:38 PM by Jon Banks »

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2022, 09:46:59 PM »


Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2022, 12:09:35 AM »
 My comments were generally aimed at US wars after WW 2

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2022, 12:14:25 AM »


In Libya and Syria, we backed Islamic extremists in their attempts to overthrow secular Arab dictators.



 Both enjoyed significant popular support for dictators

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2022, 12:14:25 AM »


Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Colors of Blue and Gold
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2022, 12:14:58 AM »
The Russians are undoubtedly in the moral wrong in this war.