Are these two photos legit?

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Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2022, 01:21:38 AM »

If the left photo was taken shortly after the one on the right... then someone apparently stacked the boxes at the “sniper nest" window in the short distance of time between the two photos...


No one stacked any boxes in the time period between the photos. The photos were taken from two different locations. It’s the different perspectives that makes the difference as to whether or not the boxes can be seen through the window opening. The Dillard photo was taken from the camera car #3 positioned in the middle of the street almost directly in front of the window. That position is about 60’ south of the window and the angle from there to the window is very steep (he was looking almost straight up). So the tops of the boxes are lower than what can be seen through the window from that angle. On the other hand, Powell’s position was near the southeast corner of Houston Street and Elm Street. I believe that Powell was about 108’ south and 96’ east of the window when he took the photo, based on my 3-D model of the sniper’s nest and expert analysis as described in “Pictures of the Pain” by Richard Trask. The angle from Powell’s position is significantly less steep than the angle from Dillard’s position. This shallower angle allows more of the boxes to be seen through the window opening.

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2022, 01:21:38 AM »

Online Jerry Organ

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2022, 01:29:38 AM »


The stack of cartons that were positioned about two feet in from the window opening appear to the viewer differently because of the differing line-of-sights between where Dillard was in the car and where Powell stood when they took their respective photos. Nothing was moved between the taking of the photos, including the small carton whose upper corner is seen just above the window ledge.



Camera-left: Carton on window sill whose upper corner was captured in the photos. Box with gouge/scar rested higher and more inward than box on sill. Box with gouge/scar was thought to have served as a rifle rest.

Camera-right: Stack of cartons positioned about two feet in from the window opening.

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2022, 01:29:38 AM »

Offline Jake Maxwell

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2022, 02:03:49 AM »

The gifs are helpful in understanding the perspective...

I think it would be a good experiment:

12:30pm on November 22, 2022 (pending good weather)
Have The Sixth Floor Museum take out the window insert...
Have two photographers in the same location as Powell and Dillard...
Attempt to duplicate the two photos with reasonable adjustments...

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2022, 02:03:49 AM »

Offline Jake Maxwell

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2022, 02:22:03 AM »

The photo below was also taken on the day of the assassination... Here’s the info:
Original black and white photographic negative taken by Dallas Times Herald staff photographer William Allen. This image shows the exterior of the Texas School Book Depository the afternoon of November 22, 1963, after the assassination. Many police officers stand around the entrance and southeast corner of the building. An unidentified man in a white shirt bends over a box visible in the open southeast corner window on the sixth floor.


I wonder how close in perspective this photo is compared to the Dillard and Powell photos?


Screen-Shot-2022-02-09-at-7-50-07-PM" border="0

Screen-Shot-2022-02-09-at-7-54-49-PM" border="0

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2022, 02:22:03 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2022, 02:26:32 AM »

The gifs are helpful in understanding the perspective...

I think it would be a good experiment:

12:30pm on November 22, 2022 (pending good weather)
Have The Sixth Floor Museum take out the window insert...
Have two photographers in the same location as Powell and Dillard...
Attempt to duplicate the two photos with reasonable adjustments...


That could be done (if the museum would do their part). However, Jerry has just shown us the results of doing the same thing, virtually, with his 3D computer model. I have also  done it with my 3D model that I created. No need to take it any further as far as I am concerned.

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2022, 02:26:32 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2022, 02:34:03 AM »

The photo below was also taken on the day of the assassination... Here’s the info:
Original black and white photographic negative taken by Dallas Times Herald staff photographer William Allen. This image shows the exterior of the Texas School Book Depository the afternoon of November 22, 1963, after the assassination. Many police officers stand around the entrance and southeast corner of the building. An unidentified man in a white shirt bends over a box visible in the open southeast corner window on the sixth floor.


I wonder how close in perspective this photo is compared to the Dillard and Powell photos?


Screen-Shot-2022-02-09-at-7-50-07-PM" border="0

Screen-Shot-2022-02-09-at-7-54-49-PM" border="0

Dillard would be close to the position of the car traveling down Elm Street in Allen’s photo. Camera car #3 was an open convertible and Dillard was in the front right seat.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 02:35:52 AM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2022, 02:34:03 AM »

Offline Jake Maxwell

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2022, 02:39:01 AM »
The gifs are great...

The Allen photo (and Powell photo) seems less steep of a perspective... than Dillard...

I can see how the boxes might not show up in Dillard...

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2022, 02:39:01 AM »

Offline Jake Maxwell

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2022, 03:30:05 AM »
Some of you are so well-read in these matters, you might have seen this before... but this adds a little wrinkle to the “boxes in the window” discussion... Very interesting... This Congressional Committee made the determination that the boxes were moved in the interval between the Dillard and Powell photographs (see para #270 below)... Interesting...

The following is from:
Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy / Volume 6
By United States. Congress. House. Select Committee on Assassinations (1979)


Screen-Shot-2022-02-10-at-8-52-46-PM" border="0
Screen-Shot-2022-02-10-at-8-56-18-PM" border="0

The source for the following is linked below the quote (JFK.hood.edu....) I’m not certain if this is from the Committee report, but it does seem to summarize and conclude on the same note...:

Screen-Shot-2022-02-10-at-9-31-33-PM" border="0

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/JFK%20Assassination%20Photos%20Book/Pages%20301-350.pdf
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 04:07:22 AM by Jake Maxwell »

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2022, 03:30:05 AM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2022, 03:41:50 PM »
Some of you are so well-read in these matters, you might have seen this before... but this adds a little wrinkle to the “boxes in the window” discussion... Very interesting... This Congressional Committee made the determination that the boxes were moved in the interval between the Dillard and Powell photographs (see para #270 below)... Interesting...

The following is from:
Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy / Volume 6
By United States. Congress. House. Select Committee on Assassinations (1979)


Screen-Shot-2022-02-10-at-8-52-46-PM" border="0
Screen-Shot-2022-02-10-at-8-56-18-PM" border="0

The source for the following is linked below the quote (JFK.hood.edu....) I’m not certain if this is from the Committee report, but it does seem to summarize and conclude on the same note...:

Screen-Shot-2022-02-10-at-9-31-33-PM" border="0

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/JFK%20Assassination%20Photos%20Book/Pages%20301-350.pdf

A look at the U.S. Naval Observatory's data for Dallas, TX at 12:30pm on 11/22/63 shows the exact position of the sun:

#declare alt[ 383]=  37.0 ; #declare azimuth[ 383]= 184.9;#declare time[ 383]= "12:30"

Simple trigonometry shows that with the clear weather and the height and orientation of the windows, that the boxes in question, in the article you posted, would be lit by the sunshine. I don't know why the study didn't take all of the factors into consideration. It appears that they make some assumptions that are entirely incorrect.

Here's an image using my 3D virtual model with the sun located properly for 12:30pm on 11/22/63. This is from just west of the sniper's nest looking east into the nest. This should give you a rough idea of the situation. And yes, I have verified the sun position is correct.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 03:49:56 PM by Charles Collins »

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2022, 03:41:50 PM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Are these two photos legit?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2022, 11:38:07 PM »
This Congressional Committee made the determination that the boxes were moved in the interval between the Dillard and Powell photographs

Exactly.  So what's the excuse, Nutters?  Is this another case of the HSCA photo panel being right, except when they are not?

 

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