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Author Topic: Not a conspiracy theory.....  (Read 6801 times)

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2022, 12:48:43 AM »
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Holmes was not there at the TSBD at that time so he cannot verify anything except what Oswald supposedly said in interrogation.

Well, fine----------------but Mr Holmes' account of what Mr Oswald said (including his reference to his "boss" or "superintendent of the place") chimes with what Chief Curry and Mr Lovelady said: front entrance encounter with a policeman and Mr Truly.

The fact that not a single person on those steps said they noticed both Officer Baker and Mr Truly go inside is both utterly bizarre and perfectly explicable

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2022, 12:48:43 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2022, 12:55:34 AM »
1. Mr Oswald visits second floor lunchroom and buys a coke
2. Mr Oswald returns to one to eat
3. Mr Oswald goes outside to watch the P. Parade
4. Officer Baker rushes up steps and asks for someone who works there to show him the stairs: Mr Oswald says 'I work here'
5. Mr Truly comes up and takes over
6. Mr Oswald remains at entrance a little while longer
7. A pressman comes running up steps and Mr Oswald points him to the nearest telephone
8. Mr Oswald goes down the steps and leaves the building just before Officer Barnett positions himself at the front door

The 'investigating' authorities will go to quite extraordinary lengths to bury the above simple sequence of events

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 06:38:40 AM »
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As every past generation has had to disenthrall itself from an inheritance of truisms and stereotypes, so in our time we must move on from the reassuring repetition of stale phrases to a new, difficult, but essential confrontation with reality.

For the great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Too often we hold fast to the clichés of our forebears. We subject all facts to a prefabricated set of interpretations. We enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
John F Kennedy 1962 Yale commencement ........
Almost like a premonition huh?

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2022, 06:38:40 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2022, 06:36:44 PM »
Sorry that I overlooked your half-assed interlocking witness Paulene Sanders.

No need to apologise as you've spotted your error.
The Sanders "interlock" is not half-assed by any means. This is from her FBI statement from 24th:

"...she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building..."

In this statement Sanders emphasises the speed which Baker arrives at the steps, a matter of seconds. She reveals that he was running and she also reveals that he ran straight into the building. This is confirmed by Baker's own testimony. Truly's testimony. And, most importantly, the Couch/Darnell films. How anyone could possibly doubt whether Baker was at the steps within seconds of the assassination is beyond me. I note your use of the phrase "half-assed" has no bearing on the quality of the witness statement so I assume it goes against your own beliefs on this particular aspect of the case, which makes this solid eye-witness testimony "half-assed" (and not your own interpretation of events)

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Sanders statement that she saw Baker arriving within seconds is further confirmation of this aspect of the reenactment.

"Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. (...)"

So which of them totally bungled the story as Reid MUST have gotten it from Truly? To Sanders this story would make no sense if she had seen any sign of Truly trailing Baker. Any sign!

I've pointed out Sanders' testimony confirms that Baker arrived at the steps within seconds of the assassination. Which it does. This is further corroborated by Baker's own testimony and the Couch/Darnell films. Three independently corroborating pieces of evidence.
You counter this with some third-hand hearsay that has no bearing on Baker's arrival time at the steps.
We know from the Couch/Darnell films that Truly was not in the 2nd floor lunchroom with Oswald so we're dealing with something that was lost in translation. Maybe Reid misunderstood what Truly was saying, maybe Sanders misunderstood what Reid was saying, maybe the FBI misunderstood what Sanders was saying.
What we can be sure of is that this is a garbled account of the encounter between Baker and Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom that Reid got from Truly, probably on the Saturday.
I do love the drama of the last line:

"To Sanders this story would make no sense if she had seen any sign of Truly trailing Baker. Any sign!"[my emphasis]

Again, you seem to be implying Truly wasn't at the steps within seconds of the assassination but we have independent corroboration from Molina that he was. Not sure where you're going with that. Sanders confirms Baker got there within seconds and Molina confirms Truly got there within seconds. Not sure what the problem is.

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BTW, how do you confirm a fake reenactment? It was nothing but a time trial to get Baker and Oswald to the second floor at the same time, hypothetically.

Not sure about the logic being used here either.
If the WC reenactment was a fake time trial why not add on ten seconds in the lobby and another ten seconds dithering at the elevators?
This would've given Oswald plenty of time to get from the 6th floor to the second floor lunchroom by the time Baker and Truly got there, rather than the three second window they allowed themselves.
This extra time could account for why Oswald was so calm and composed, why he wasn't out of breath.
This extra time could account for Brennan's and Euins' observation that the shooter lingered.at the window.
This extra time would've meant Oswald had a realistic amount of time to wipe the rifle clean.
His lack of hurry could account for why the three men on the 5th didn't hear him rushing across the floor inches above their heads after Norman had heard the hulls hitting the floor.

In reenacting the movements of Baker and Truly as accurately as possible the WC totally shot themselves in the foot. This is why the detail of Oswald already having a Coke in his hand had to be cut out, because the 3 second window they allowed themselves wouldn't allow for Oswald buying a Coke.
All the WC had to do was add a few seconds on. But they didn't. They allowed Baker and Truly to reenact their movements as accurately as possible and this caused a huge problem for them. One that could've gone away if they'd actually faked the reenactment.

Clearly, you view all this in a completely different way, the logic of which eludes me.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2022, 10:55:13 PM »
Sorry that I overlooked your half-assed interlocking witness Paulene Sanders.

Sanders statement that she saw Baker arriving within seconds is further confirmation of this aspect of the reenactment.

"Mrs. SANDERS advised that this morning she called GERALDINE REID, another employee, telephone number FE 1-6617, who told her that the police officer who had first entered the building ran into the lunch room where Mr. TRULY, the warehouse manager, and OSWALD were evidently lunching. The police officer put his gun into OSWALD's stomach but TRULY advised the police officer that OSWALD worked for him. Police officer turned turned away and evidently left the area. (...)"

I've highlighted some of this text, Mr Beck, because there's a curious similarity between this and the wording of Agent Bookhout's first SOLO interrogation report:

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.

Both versions would seem to have Mr Oswald and Mr Truly in the lunchroom at the same time... and then a policeman comes in... and then the policeman leaves the lunchroom ALONE and continues his search, leaving Mr Oswald and Mr Truly still in the lunchroom

Now! From Mrs Jeraldean Reid's WC testimony:

Mr. Belin.
Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. Reid.
I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. Belin.
All right.
Mrs. Reid.
I can't remember the time they left.


Has she just let something slip here? She confirms that there were men (plural) in the lunchroom during lunchbreak before the motorcade. One wonders who they could have been......... Was Mr Joe Molina one of them? Apart from him, I can't think of anyone other than Mr Oswald or Mr Truly............

Could it possibly be that there WAS a second-floor lunchroom incident but that it happened BEFORE the assassination-----------and was seen by Ms Reid and others? A police officer (not Motorcycle Officer Baker) or a 'police officer' was checking out----or pretending to check out----the building ahead of the motorcade's arrival?

Far-fetched? Well, consider this: Chief Jesse Curry told the press 11/23/63 that the first officer into the building "found Oswald among other persons in a lunchroom" (New York Times, 11/24/63)

This would go a long way towards aligning the Hosty draft interrogation report with the Bookhout solo report:

1. Visit to lunchroom before motorcade
2. Down to first floor
3. Goes outside to watch P. Parade--standing beside Mr Shelley

The weasel words in the Bookhout report that fudge the timeline would then be those in bold below:

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.

"At the time of the search..." - this is a mighty odd way of saying "Just after the shooting". I mean, the post-assassination search took a long time. The wording here arguably suggests a search that took place inside a much more defined period of time.............

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2022, 10:55:13 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2022, 11:09:28 PM »
I've highlighted some of this text, Mr Beck, because there's a curious similarity between this and the wording of Agent Bookhout's first SOLO interrogation report:

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.

Both versions would seem to have Mr Oswald and Mr Truly in the lunchroom at the same time... and then a policeman comes in... and then the policeman leaves the lunchroom ALONE and continues his search, leaving Mr Oswald and Mr Truly still in the lunchroom

Now! From Mrs Jeraldean Reid's WC testimony:

Mr. Belin.
Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. Reid.
I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. Belin.
All right.
Mrs. Reid.
I can't remember the time they left.


Has she just let something slip here? She confirms that there were men (plural) in the lunchroom during lunchbreak before the motorcade. One wonders who they could have been......... Was Mr Joe Molina one of them? Apart from him, I can't think of anyone other than Mr Oswald or Mr Truly............

Could it possibly be that there WAS a second-floor lunchroom incident but that it happened BEFORE the assassination-----------and was seen by Ms Reid and others? A police officer (not Motorcycle Officer Baker) or a 'police officer' was checking out----or pretending to check out----the building ahead of the motorcade's arrival?

Far-fetched? Well, consider this: Chief Jesse Curry told the press 11/23/63 that the first officer into the building "found Oswald among other persons in a lunchroom" (New York Times, 11/24/63)

This would go a long way towards aligning the Hosty draft interrogation report with the Bookhout solo report:

1. Visit to lunchroom before motorcade
2. Down to first floor
3. Goes outside to watch P. Parade--standing beside Mr Shelley

The weasel words in the Bookhout report that fudge the timeline would then be those in bold below:

OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.

"At the time of the search..." - this is a mighty odd way of saying "Just after the shooting". I mean, the post-assassination search took a long time. The wording here arguably suggests a search that took place inside a much more defined period of time.............

Just so we've all got this straight...

Baker goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom
There are two men he's never seen before eating lunch.
Baker pulls his gun on one of them
The other says "It's OK, he's with me."
So Baker leaves.

Even for you this is out there.  Thumb1:

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2022, 11:12:14 PM »
Just so we've all got this straight...

Baker goes into the 2nd floor lunchroom
There are two men he's never seen before eating lunch.
Baker pulls his gun on one of them
The other says "It's OK, he's with me."
So Baker leaves.

No, Mr O'Meara, you haven't got this straight. Have a little nap and then try again  Thumb1:

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2022, 11:12:14 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Not a conspiracy theory.....
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2022, 12:03:04 AM »
No, Mr O'Meara, you haven't got this straight. Have a little nap and then try again  Thumb1:

You forgot to tell me where I was going wrong with your latest theory.