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Author Topic: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...  (Read 4852 times)

Offline Jake Maxwell

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2022, 09:42:09 PM »
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I just chatted with two different Safelite Auto Glass agents, asking if a technician can easily tell if a crack came from the inside or outside of a windshield...
I got the very same reply...: (see screenshot of chat)


“Yes they can!”

Screen-Shot-2022-02-06-at-3-19-33-PM" border="0

Screen-Shot-2022-02-06-at-3-22-41-PM" border="0

« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 09:49:17 PM by Jake Maxwell »

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2022, 09:42:09 PM »


Offline Jake Maxwell

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2022, 12:31:15 AM »

This one determination of where the crack originated would settle the issue... and answer the question, “Was there another shooter from the front?"
There are ballistics experts who can look at a crack like this and determine from which direction the object came...
Perhaps a technician could make a determination from using only the photo...
If so, it would be interesting to get a response from two or three...
My guess from the location of the crack... if coming from the front... is that “they" were trying to take out Greer... like they took out Oswald... before any incriminating information could be disclosed...
Maybe for Greer it functioned as a warning shot...

« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:40:43 AM by Jake Maxwell »

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2022, 10:00:38 AM »
 I find it a leap of faith to assume Kellerman mistook fragments hitting the windshield as a flurry of separate shots coming in. Could a person differentiate the timing of a bullet landing from the fragments landing just a few feet ahead? I does not seem like enough time for anyone to think it is two separate shots.
 Then we have Greer who describes the last shots as "almost simultaneous". Both these agents are experienced with weapons yet both are fooled by fragments of a single round?
  There is also lots of corroboration from other witnesses in the follow up car and LBJ's car and other locations. About 25 witnesses said the last shots were in rapid succession,  like automatic fire, almost at the same time and other similar descriptions. They were not in the front seat experiencing the fragments.
 The idea Kellerman mistook fragments for a flurry of separate shots seems like unsupported conjecture.

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2022, 10:00:38 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2022, 08:24:17 PM »
I find it a leap of faith to assume Kellerman mistook fragments hitting the windshield as a flurry of separate shots coming in. Could a person differentiate the timing of a bullet landing from the fragments landing just a few feet ahead? I does not seem like enough time for anyone to think it is two separate shots.
 Then we have Greer who describes the last shots as "almost simultaneous". Both these agents are experienced with weapons yet both are fooled by fragments of a single round?
  There is also lots of corroboration from other witnesses in the follow up car and LBJ's car and other locations. About 25 witnesses said the last shots were in rapid succession,  like automatic fire, almost at the same time and other similar descriptions. They were not in the front seat experiencing the fragments.
 The idea Kellerman mistook fragments for a flurry of separate shots seems like unsupported conjecture.

"The idea Kellerman mistook fragments for a flurry of separate shots seems like unsupported conjecture."

I wouldn't agree that it's unsupported.
The timing Kellerman gives for the "flurry" equates to the head-shot. The bullet fragmented and some of the fragments were powerful enough to crack the reinforced windshield and dent the chrome trim above. He describes it this way -"a flurry of shells come into the car." He does not seem to be describing shots being heard outside the vehicle, he is describing something happening inside the vehicle. In the Z-Film we can see this is the exact moment Kellerman and Greer duck for cover. Personally, I doubt they are ducking from sounds, I think they are ducking from objects smashing into the windshield and chrome trim, something that really happened. Nowhere does Kellerman describe fragments coming into the vehicle.
The timing, the ducking motion of Kellerman and Greer and the actual damage to the vehicle strongly indicate Kellerman is talking about bullet fragments from the head-shot spraying the inside of the limo.
That said, it's just my opinion and not a fact, but I don't think it is "unsupported".
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 08:25:52 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Chris Bristow

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2022, 02:25:15 AM »
"The idea Kellerman mistook fragments for a flurry of separate shots seems like unsupported conjecture."

I wouldn't agree that it's unsupported.
The timing Kellerman gives for the "flurry" equates to the head-shot. The bullet fragmented and some of the fragments were powerful enough to crack the reinforced windshield and dent the chrome trim above. He describes it this way -"a flurry of shells come into the car." He does not seem to be describing shots being heard outside the vehicle, he is describing something happening inside the vehicle. In the Z-Film we can see this is the exact moment Kellerman and Greer duck for cover. Personally, I doubt they are ducking from sounds, I think they are ducking from objects smashing into the windshield and chrome trim, something that really happened. Nowhere does Kellerman describe fragments coming into the vehicle.
The timing, the ducking motion of Kellerman and Greer and the actual damage to the vehicle strongly indicate Kellerman is talking about bullet fragments from the head-shot spraying the inside of the limo.
That said, it's just my opinion and not a fact, but I don't think it is "unsupported".

Kellerman actually says "a flurry of rounds CAME INTO the car."
The fact their ducking at the time of the shot is more likely due to the shot/shots than reacting to fragments. Why jump to the conjecture about them reacting to fragments when a round just entered the car? Kellerman said he heard the gross sound of the round hitting JFK's head. I think he described it as a melon being dropped. I am sure that is enough to make anyone duck all by itself. No need to theorize about reacting to fragments.
 But the biggest problem for me is those fragments would hit the windshield a fraction of a second after the head shot.
 The debris that flew up can be measured to over 100mph. The debris that hit the windshield would have been traveling about the same speed. Traveling the 7 feet from JFK to the windshield would take about 1/20th of a second. The debris and fragments would hit the windshield far too quickly for it to be perceived as two separate shots.
 The fact that Greer was looking at JFK when his head exploded and Kellerman said he heard it hit gives us more than enough reason to explain their ducking without invoking the fragments. Or you could say the reacted to both the head shot and the fragments as a single event. But there is no reason to assume they took the fragments to be a separate shot.

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2022, 02:25:15 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2022, 06:41:41 PM »
Kellerman actually says "a flurry of rounds CAME INTO the car."
The fact their ducking at the time of the shot is more likely due to the shot/shots than reacting to fragments. Why jump to the conjecture about them reacting to fragments when a round just entered the car? Kellerman said he heard the gross sound of the round hitting JFK's head. I think he described it as a melon being dropped. I am sure that is enough to make anyone duck all by itself. No need to theorize about reacting to fragments.
 But the biggest problem for me is those fragments would hit the windshield a fraction of a second after the head shot.
 The debris that flew up can be measured to over 100mph. The debris that hit the windshield would have been traveling about the same speed. Traveling the 7 feet from JFK to the windshield would take about 1/20th of a second. The debris and fragments would hit the windshield far too quickly for it to be perceived as two separate shots.
 The fact that Greer was looking at JFK when his head exploded and Kellerman said he heard it hit gives us more than enough reason to explain their ducking without invoking the fragments. Or you could say the reacted to both the head shot and the fragments as a single event. But there is no reason to assume they took the fragments to be a separate shot.

It guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
I was simply saying that, although it is conjecture to assume Kellerman was describing the front of the limo being sprayed by bullet fragments as a "flurry of shells", it's not "unsupported" conjecture:

It is clear from Kellerman's testimony that the moment he refers to the "flurry" is the same moment as the head-shot.
We know the bullet fragmented at the head-shot.
We know these fragments sprayed the front of the limo.
We know this spray of fragments caused damage to the reinforced windshield and chrome trim.
We know from the Z-film this is the same moment Greer and Kellerman ducked.
It maybe a coincidence Kellerman describes a "flurry of shells" coming into the car at the same moment the front of the limo is sprayed with bullet fragments but I doubt it.

"The fact their ducking at the time of the shot is more likely due to the shot/shots than reacting to fragments. Why jump to the conjecture about them reacting to fragments when a round just entered the car?"

Kellerman is clearly describing multiple objects entering the front of the limo and not "a round". How can a single round be described as a "flurry". Furthermore, it's my opinion that when Kellerman says the flurry "came into the car" he is describing the front of the limo, not what is going on behind him. JFK had already been shot through the neck but Kellerman doesn't describe that as a "flurry of shells".
It is pure conjecture to assume Kellerman is describing a single shot as a "flurry".

"Kellerman said he heard the gross sound of the round hitting JFK's head. I think he described it as a melon being dropped. I am sure that is enough to make anyone duck all by itself. No need to theorize about reacting to fragments."

To imagine both special agents ducked for cover because they heard something that sounded like a melon being dropped can only be described as wild conjecture. We know that the front of the limo was sprayed with bullet fragments, this would seem like an ideal moment to duck for cover and it can be no coincidence that they duck for cover a split second after the head-shot.
Which seems more plausible - duck for cover because a) the front of the limo is sprayed with bullet fragments, or b) it sounded like a melon being dropped.

Like I say, this is a point we will have to agree to disagree on.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 06:48:46 PM by Dan O'meara »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2022, 08:26:03 PM »
Of all the futile efforts, trying to match up witness recollections of events down to fractions of seconds in the Z-film probably tops the list.  They have undergone a sudden and traumatic event that played out in a handful of seconds.  They then use imprecise language to describe these recollections that can then be interpreted in multiple ways. 

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2022, 08:26:03 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Cracked windshield and ballistics experts...
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2022, 09:41:35 PM »
Of all the futile efforts, trying to match up witness recollections of events down to fractions of seconds in the Z-film probably tops the list.  They have undergone a sudden and traumatic event that played out in a handful of seconds.  They then use imprecise language to describe these recollections that can then be interpreted in multiple ways.

We all know you're not one for details Richard.
Interpreting Kellerman's words as a flurry of shots coming into the limo indicates more than one shooter. This may be a trivial detail for you as you are safe in the narrative that's been handed to you but, in trying to genuinely understand what happened that day, it's vital to have an understanding of such details.
You are correct, witnesses use imprecise language to describe these recollections so they must be tested against the physical evidence -
Shots were fired
The head-shot bullet fragmented
These fragments sprayed the front of the limo causing damage to the windshield and chrome trim
Greer and Kellerman reflexively duck for cover within a split-second of the head-shot, as shown in the Z-film

Is it because a flurry of shots came into the limo - contradicting the lone assassin narrative
Is it because a single fragmenting bullet sprayed the inside of the limo - supporting the lone assassin narrative
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 09:47:01 PM by Dan O'meara »