Why classify information?

[Richard Smith]

Explain to us what evidence is lacking from the record that would satisfy you of Oswald's ownership of the rifle found on the 6th floor.

Well. let's start with this; (1) show the original of Waldman 07 [the only document that links the MC rifle found at the TSBD to the Hidell order, with a handwritten serial number] and not just a photocopy and (2) name one person who actually saw Oswald with that particular rifle, or any other rifle for that matter, after April 1963.

Why does a photocopy of the document cast any doubt on its authenticity?  Waldman himself confirmed it came from Klein's records.  Was he part of the conspiracy?  That is weak rabbit hole nonsense even from you.  There is absolutely no reason to doubt that this document is authentic.  What it tells us is that a specific rifle was sent to the PO Box belonging to Oswald and the serial number confirms that it is the same rifle found at TSBD.  Fired bullet casings from that rifle were found by the window from which witnesses saw a rifle at the moment of the assassination.  There is no doubt that this rifle belonged to Oswald and that it was used to assassinate JFK. 

[Paul May]

The b/y photos by themselves prove Oswald owned and possessed the murder weapon found at the scene of the crime. This is 58 year old documented evidence. The conspiracy crowd can no longer dispute this evidence, yet they try. Why? No idea.

[Martin Weidmann]

You are dealing with a person who doesn't want to be convinced of an obvious fact supported by the evidence.  As you note, the shell casings came from Oswald's rifle.  They were found by the window from which witnesses confirm that they saw a rifle at the moment of the assassination.  Oswald's prints are on the boxes by that window.  His rifle is found on that floor.  He has no credible alibi for the moment of the assassination.  Instead he flees the scene, is involved in another murder less than an hour later, resists arrest and tries to kill more police officers when approached at the Texas Theatre, and lies to the DPD about his ownership of a rifle.  It is laughable for anyone to suggest the evidence against Oswald is lacking in any respect.  Martin just goes endlessly round and round down the same rabbit holes.

Bla bla bla... When are you going to stop reciting your superficial take on the evidence and become a bit more curious?

Wait... I forgot for a second that I am talking to Richard "Mr. Neutral" Smith. Forget I asked.....

Why does a photocopy of the document cast any doubt on its authenticity?  Waldman himself confirmed it came from Klein's records.  Was he part of the conspiracy?  That is weak rabbit hole nonsense even from you.  There is absolutely no reason to doubt that this document is authentic.  What it tells us is that a specific rifle was sent to the PO Box belonging to Oswald and the serial number confirms that it is the same rifle found at TSBD.  Fired bullet casings from that rifle were found by the window from which witnesses saw a rifle at the moment of the assassination.  There is no doubt that this rifle belonged to Oswald and that it was used to assassinate JFK. 

Why does a photocopy of the document cast any doubt on its authenticity?

Why am I not surprised you are asking such a pathetically stupid question.

Waldman himself confirmed it came from Klein's records.

No. Waldman confirmed that the document was an internal Klein's document, but he never saw the original of this particular document. All he did and could do, some 6 months after the assassination, was that the "order blank" form was a document used. What he could not do is confirm that the handwritten content of the document was authentic.

There is absolutely no reason to doubt that this document is authentic.

BS.. If photocopies are deemed to be authentic, why does the FBI have a special questioned documents department? Or are you merely saying that only this photocopy is authentic? And if you are, on what do you base that opinion?

What it tells us is that a specific rifle was sent to the PO Box belonging to Oswald and the serial number confirms that it is the same rifle found at TSBD.

It tells us no such thing.

Fired bullet casings from that rifle were found by the window from which witnesses saw a rifle at the moment of the assassination.

Are those the ones Fritz picked up, or the ones he threw down in the sniper's nest?

There is no doubt that this rifle belonged to Oswald and that it was used to assassinate JFK. 

There most certainly isn't any doubt about the fact that you are (or at least pretend to be) a gullible fool.

Btw you asked me to explain what evidence is lacking from the record that would satisfy me of Oswald's ownership of the rifle.
I gave you two examples. As expected you dismissed out of hand the first one (no surprise there) but you completely ignore the second one. Why is that?

The b/y photos by themselves prove Oswald owned and possessed the murder weapon found at the scene of the crime. This is 58 year old documented evidence. The conspiracy crowd can no longer dispute this evidence, yet they try. Why? No idea.

Paul, you really disappoint me. The BY photos do not prove ownership of any rifle, let alone a rifle found at the crime scene.
I was once photographed holding a rifle, which belonged to a friend. By your "logic" I would now be the owner of that rifle, right? Well, if that's the case, what if I let myself be photographed next to an expensive car, does that car become my property?

If the answers to both my questions is "no", then please explain why the answer would be "yes" in Oswald's case?

[Paul May]

And you actually believe yours is a cogent response knowing the totality of the evidence against Oswald. This is why after 58 years you conspiracy folks have no case for conspiracy. You’re never honest about the known evidence. So, who owns the rifle being held by Oswald in the b/y photos?

[Martin Weidmann]

And you actually believe yours is a cogent response knowing the totality of the evidence against Oswald. This is why after 58 years you conspiracy folks have no case for conspiracy. You’re never honest about the known evidence. So, who owns the rifle being held by Oswald in the b/y photos?

So, you don't want to answer my question? Why not... It's straight forward one!

So, who owns the rifle being held by Oswald in the b/y photos?

I have no idea and neither do you. You can only assume Oswald owned the rifle, but the photos themselves do not tell you that in any way shape or form.

If you disagree, then please tell me how you can conclude ownership of that rifle by looking at a photo?

Because that's what you said, right?

The b/y photos by themselves prove Oswald owned and possessed the murder weapon found at the scene of the crime. This is 58 year old documented evidence. The conspiracy crowd can no longer dispute this evidence, yet they try. Why? No idea.

[Richard Smith]

Bla bla bla... When are you going to stop reciting your superficial take on the evidence and become a bit more curious?

Wait... I forgot for a second that I am talking to Richard "Mr. Neutral" Smith. Forget I asked.....

Why does a photocopy of the document cast any doubt on its authenticity?

Why am I not surprised you are asking such a pathetically stupid question.

Waldman himself confirmed it came from Klein's records.

No. Waldman confirmed that the document was an internal Klein's document, but he never saw the original of this particular document. All he did and could do, some 6 months after the assassination, was that the "order blank" form was a document used. What he could not do is confirm that the handwritten content of the document was authentic.

There is absolutely no reason to doubt that this document is authentic.

BS.. If photocopies are deemed to be authentic, why does the FBI have a special questioned documents department? Or are you merely saying that only this photocopy is authentic? And if you are, on what do you base that opinion?

What it tells us is that a specific rifle was sent to the PO Box belonging to Oswald and the serial number confirms that it is the same rifle found at TSBD.

It tells us no such thing.

Fired bullet casings from that rifle were found by the window from which witnesses saw a rifle at the moment of the assassination.

Are those the ones Fritz picked up, or the ones he threw down in the sniper's nest?

There is no doubt that this rifle belonged to Oswald and that it was used to assassinate JFK. 

There most certainly isn't any doubt about the fact that you are (or at least pretend to be) a gullible fool.

Btw you asked me to explain what evidence is lacking from the record that would satisfy me of Oswald's ownership of the rifle.
I gave you two examples. As expected you dismissed out of hand the first one (no surprise there) but you completely ignore the second one. Why is that?

Paul, you really disappoint me. The BY photos do not prove ownership of any rifle, let alone a rifle found at the crime scene.
I was once photographed holding a rifle, which belonged to a friend. By your "logic" I would now be the owner of that rifle, right? Well, if that's the case, what if I let myself be photographed next to an expensive car, does that car become my property?

If the answers to both my questions is "no", then please explain why the answer would be "yes" in Oswald's case?

You can tell Martin is starting to panic when he resorts to personal insults.  No answer for why a photocopy casts any doubt on its authenticity under the circumstances.  We know how the Klein's documents were discovered.  That process allowed for no opportunity for fabrication.  The FBI discovered by 10PM that Klein's had handled this rifle.  They got Waldman to accompany them to his Chicago office where the records were kept.  Mitchell Scibor, the general operating manager, searched Klein's records.  Around midnight they confirm this is a rifle they handled.  They continue to search their own microfilm records until about 4AM when Scibor finds the documents that confirm this rifle was ordered by someone named "Hidell" and sent to a Dallas PO Box.  How would any conspirator fake these documents and insert them into Klein's microfilm records before midnight on Nov. 22?  Waldman is present when the search of these records is undertaken.  His employee finds them.  Unless these are fake, it confirms that a specific rifle was sent to the PO Box belonging to LHO.  We also know that fired bullet casings from this rifle are found at the crime scene.  This specific rifle is left at the crime scene.  It is not linked to anyone else.  Only Oswald.  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude what happened.  Unfortunately, we are dealing with Inspector Clouseau.

[Martin Weidmann]

You can tell Martin is starting to panic when he resorts to personal insults.  No answer for why a photocopy casts any doubt on its authenticity under the circumstances.  We know how the Klein's documents were discovered.  That process allowed for no opportunity for fabrication.  The FBI discovered by 10PM that Klein's had handled this rifle.  They got Waldman to accompany them to his Chicago office where the records were kept.  Mitchell Scibor, the general operating manager, searched Klein's records.  Around midnight they confirm this is a rifle they handled.  They continue to search their own microfilm records until about 4AM when Scibor finds the documents that confirm this rifle was ordered by someone named "Hidell" and sent to a Dallas PO Box.  How would any conspirator fake these documents and insert them into Klein's microfilm records before midnight on Nov. 22?  Waldman is present when the search of these records is undertaken.  His employee finds them.  Unless these are fake, it confirms that a specific rifle was sent to the PO Box belonging to LHO.  We also know that fired bullet casings from this rifle are found at the crime scene.  This specific rifle is left at the crime scene.  It is not linked to anyone else.  Only Oswald.  It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude what happened.  Unfortunately, we are dealing with Inspector Clouseau.

You can tell Martin is starting to panic when he resorts to personal insults.

 

No answer for why a photocopy casts any doubt on its authenticity under the circumstances.

That's an easy one. A photocopy is far easier to manipulate than an original. Btw can I pick up your car tomorrow with a photocopied document of sale carrying your signature?

We know how the Klein's documents were discovered.  That process allowed for no opportunity for fabrication.

That's probably true, but they did not need such an opportunity. The agents took the microfilm and it wasn't until May 20th 1964 that Waldman and Scibor saw a copy of Waldman 7 again. Six months is a long time to remember every little detail on a form.

The FBI discovered by 10PM that Klein's had handled this rifle.  They got Waldman to accompany them to his Chicago office where the records were kept.  Mitchell Scibor, the general operating manager, searched Klein's records.  Around midnight they confirm this is a rifle they handled.  They continue to search their own microfilm records until about 4AM when Scibor finds the documents that confirm this rifle was ordered by someone named "Hidell" and sent to a Dallas PO Box.

Of course they found those documents, but if you read Scibor's testimony carefully, you will notice that what he found on 11/22/63 was a Klein's "order blank" form with a handwritten serial and control number on it. There is no mention of Hidell's name being on that particular form. What is amazing is that Belin asked Scibor if he had any supervision or control over the people making the entries of the serial and control numbers;

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.
Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?
Mr. SCIBOR. No.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?
Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

and when he said "Yes", Belin did not ask any further about who those men were. Instead he cut off his line of questioning and started asking Scibor about his background. It's a classic lawyer trick when they get an answer they dont expect or want to hear.

How would any conspirator fake these documents and insert them into Klein's microfilm records before midnight on Nov. 22?  Waldman is present when the search of these records is undertaken.

Already answered.

Unless these are fake, it confirms that a specific rifle was sent to the PO Box belonging to LHO.

What are fake? The documents found by Scibor on 11/22/63 or the copies presented to him and Waldman on 05/20/64? Did you ever learn that the best lie is the one that stays as close to the truth as possible?

It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to conclude what happened.  Unfortunately, we are dealing with Inspector Clouseau.


You can tell Martin Richard is starting to panic when he resorts to personal insults.

[Mitch Todd]

Of course they found those documents, but if you read Scibor's testimony carefully, you will notice that what he found on 11/22/63 was a Klein's "order blank" form with a handwritten serial and control number on it. There is no mention of Hidell's name being on that particular form. What is amazing is that Belin asked Scibor if he had any supervision or control over the people making the entries of the serial and control numbers;

Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.
Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?
Mr. SCIBOR. No.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?
Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

The excerpt quoted from Scibor's testimony is referring to Waldman exhibit  4 (part of the shipment record of the Carcanos received from Crescent Firearms), not Waldman exhibit 7 (the Klein's "order blank"). If we properly quote Scibor's testimony, we get this:

Mr. BELIN. I notice the date and the notations in the upper lefthand corner, RR-1243; underneath that, the date 2-22-63. Do you know what that has reference to?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; the "RR" stands for receiving record No. 1243, and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving-department on 2-22-63.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show from whom it was received?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes; Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. And underneath the "Crescent Firearms," what does it say?
Mr. SCIBOR. Italian Carcano T38, 6.5 Italian caliber rifle.
Mr. BELIN. Now, there are some notations in the upper righthand corner, what does that have reference to?
Mr. SCIBOR. Those are notations strictly for the receiving department. I have the men back there keep these in rotation so that I can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of.
Mr. BELIN. And did you do any of that writing at all?
Mr. SCIBOR. No.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision?
Mr. SCIBOR. Repeat that.
Mr. BELIN. Well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers?
Mr. SCIBOR. Yes.

The "RR-1243" and "2-22-63" are found on Waldman 4, but not Waldman 7.