3D Modeling

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Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2021, 06:40:37 PM »
Anyone with a brain knows that Oswald could not have pulled off the feat with the gun they found up there. He would have had to assemble the gun [no proof or witnesses saw this happen] after bringing it in, and he would have had to sight and align the scope. There's no way he could have pulled all of this off AND made perfect shots in 6 seconds when many shooting experts couldn't pull off the same sequence under controlled settings.

What Oswald Apologists don't want to Hear

Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing

____________________________________________________________

The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
produces 2,220 fps in a 24” barrel with a 170 grain bullet. The 6.5 X 52
mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient, at a higher
velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
.30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
it was intended.

The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and
through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered
something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is
well known.

____________________________________________________________


The original 6.5 X 52 mm Carcano design used a gain twist barrel. The gain
twist results in a very slow initial twist in the barrel progressively
getting faster until the full twist rate is attained at the muzzle. The
slow initial twist results in substantially less torque being imparted to
the bullet during the highest loading phase of the interior ballistic
cycle. This results in significantly less barrel wear in the throat. This
coupled with the very deep rifling of the barrel would result in barrels
that would have a very long wear and accuracy life. This in fact is the
case. Many M91 model rifles show signs of considerable amounts of
ammunition being fired through them, because of the crazed/frosted
condition of the bore, yet still show very strong rifling and shoot well
with the proper size bullets. The 7.35 X 51 mm Carcano rifles used a
standard fixed twist barrel. The Carcano bolt is the model of a simple,
easy to field strip bolt. It is about as fool proof as you can get for a
common soldier. The Carcano trigger has taken a considerable amount of
criticism. The trigger is basically a Mauser type two-stage trigger. In
almost all cases if you find the trigger rough or creepy simply polishing
the sear and trigger mating faces result in a very acceptable trigger for
a military rifle. For the most part I have found Carcano triggers have
less creep, are more crisp and lighter than the majority of Mauser
triggers I have encountered.

The materials used in the Carcano are excellent. These rifles were made
from special steels perfected by the Czechs, for which the Italians paid
royalties. If you have ever tried doing any work on a Carcano receiver you
will find out just how hard and tough the steel is. The Carcano has also
received a reputation as being a “weak” design. Nothing could be
further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.

____________________________________________________________

The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
meters. The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350 meters. This is
about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more simple and
effective could it have been made.

____________________________________________________________

6.5 x 52 mm

The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the exception
of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are very pleasant
to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above mentioned sight
picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of the rear sight
notch, it is very important to have a consistent stock- cheek weld for
consistent accuracy. It is often very helpful to use a carbide lamp or a
sight black product to blacken the sights, which improves contrast and
sight picture.

____________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION:

The 6.5 X 52 is a very useful and capable cartridge. It served well as a
military cartridge for over 80 years. The 7.35 X 51 would have been an
even more effective military cartridge than the 6.5 X 52 had its timing
been different. It is interesting to note that the .308 Winchester / 7.62
X 51 mm NATO and the 7.35 X 51 mm are nearly the same dimensions. Both the
6.5 and 7.35 cartridges are fun to shoot and properly loaded capable of
very good accuracy. The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no
means weak or poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles
that are fun to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings
for the collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle
as compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most
efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in their
era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is capable of
accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser chamberings.

____________________________________________________________
Carcano Homepage: Italian Military Rifles and Carbines
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 06:44:01 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2021, 06:40:37 PM »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2021, 06:54:48 PM »
What Oswald Apologists don't want to Hear

Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing

____________________________________________________________

The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
produces 2,220 fps in a 24” barrel with a 170 grain bullet. The 6.5 X 52
mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient, at a higher
velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
.30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
it was intended.

The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and
through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered
something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is
well known.

____________________________________________________________


The original 6.5 X 52 mm Carcano design used a gain twist barrel. The gain
twist results in a very slow initial twist in the barrel progressively
getting faster until the full twist rate is attained at the muzzle. The
slow initial twist results in substantially less torque being imparted to
the bullet during the highest loading phase of the interior ballistic
cycle. This results in significantly less barrel wear in the throat. This
coupled with the very deep rifling of the barrel would result in barrels
that would have a very long wear and accuracy life. This in fact is the
case. Many M91 model rifles show signs of considerable amounts of
ammunition being fired through them, because of the crazed/frosted
condition of the bore, yet still show very strong rifling and shoot well
with the proper size bullets. The 7.35 X 51 mm Carcano rifles used a
standard fixed twist barrel. The Carcano bolt is the model of a simple,
easy to field strip bolt. It is about as fool proof as you can get for a
common soldier. The Carcano trigger has taken a considerable amount of
criticism. The trigger is basically a Mauser type two-stage trigger. In
almost all cases if you find the trigger rough or creepy simply polishing
the sear and trigger mating faces result in a very acceptable trigger for
a military rifle. For the most part I have found Carcano triggers have
less creep, are more crisp and lighter than the majority of Mauser
triggers I have encountered.

The materials used in the Carcano are excellent. These rifles were made
from special steels perfected by the Czechs, for which the Italians paid
royalties. If you have ever tried doing any work on a Carcano receiver you
will find out just how hard and tough the steel is. The Carcano has also
received a reputation as being a “weak” design. Nothing could be
further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.

____________________________________________________________

The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
meters. The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350 meters. This is
about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more simple and
effective could it have been made.

____________________________________________________________

6.5 x 52 mm

The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the exception
of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are very pleasant
to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above mentioned sight
picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of the rear sight
notch, it is very important to have a consistent stock- cheek weld for
consistent accuracy. It is often very helpful to use a carbide lamp or a
sight black product to blacken the sights, which improves contrast and
sight picture.

____________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION:

The 6.5 X 52 is a very useful and capable cartridge. It served well as a
military cartridge for over 80 years. The 7.35 X 51 would have been an
even more effective military cartridge than the 6.5 X 52 had its timing
been different. It is interesting to note that the .308 Winchester / 7.62
X 51 mm NATO and the 7.35 X 51 mm are nearly the same dimensions. Both the
6.5 and 7.35 cartridges are fun to shoot and properly loaded capable of
very good accuracy. The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no
means weak or poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles
that are fun to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings
for the collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle
as compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most
efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in their
era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is capable of
accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser chamberings.

____________________________________________________________
Carcano Homepage: Italian Military Rifles and Carbines
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/
Oswald's co-workers stated they broke for lunch at 11:50 that day of the assassination. Oswald stayed behind as they took the elevator down. Meaning Oswald had 40 minutes to re-assemble the rifle- from 11:50 to 12:30. With a screwdriver. Or a quarter. Oswald had that rifle since March 25 or about eight months before that day. Marina testified that she saw him practicing with it. Adrian Alba testified that he and Oswald talked a great deal about guns. In other words, Oswald was not a novice with that weapon.

I think anyone who believes Oswald was incapable of assembling that rifle or that he didn't have enough time is ignoring a great deal of evidence.

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2021, 06:54:48 PM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2021, 07:04:11 PM »
Anyone with a brain knows that Oswald could not have pulled off the feat with the gun they found up there. He would have had to assemble the gun [no proof or witnesses saw this happen] after bringing it in, and he would have had to sight and align the scope. There's no way he could have pulled all of this off AND made perfect shots in 6 seconds when many shooting experts couldn't pull off the same sequence under controlled settings.

The factory Carcano is automatically battle-sighted out to 230m
Oswald used the iron sights. The scope was an ego thing.

No precision aiming needed. Track the man's middle. Snuff when ready.
 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 11:19:04 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2021, 07:04:11 PM »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2021, 07:18:33 PM »
The factory Carcano is automatically battle-sighted out to 230m
Oswald used the iron sights. The scope was an ego thing.

No precise aiming needed. Track the man's middle. Snuff when ready.
Three "perfect shots"? Wouldn't one "perfect" shot be enough? He missed with his first, missed - missed as in killing - with his second, and then about 8-9 seconds after the first hit the target on his third shot. He missed the first at nearly point blank range. Missed or deflected.

I think if you need to take three shots to kill a man you can't characterize the first two as "perfect shots." Unless he was trying to miss with the first two? In which case, never mind.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 07:42:52 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2021, 07:18:33 PM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2021, 08:21:53 PM »
Oswald's co-workers stated they broke for lunch at 11:50 that day of the assassination. Oswald stayed behind as they took the elevator down. Meaning Oswald had 40 minutes to re-assemble the rifle- from 11:50 to 12:30. With a screwdriver. Or a quarter. Oswald had that rifle since March 25 or about eight months before that day. Marina testified that she saw him practicing with it. Adrian Alba testified that he and Oswald talked a great deal about guns. In other words, Oswald was not a novice with that weapon.

I think anyone who believes Oswald was incapable of assembling that rifle or that he didn't have enough time is ignoring a great deal of evidence.

The novices reside on the far shores of the lunatic fringe. They're even paying to get there. A waste of money to be sure, as we notice the stolen Learjet barely afloat in the Mediterranean, kept temporarily above water by a pair of HotAirLines,Inc. unmentionables.


billchapman/hunter of trolls

Life can turn on a dime, and did, according to CC.
Six minutes to screw around with pocket change.
Faster with more practice, practice, practice* he tells us.

Who gives a rat's arse what these chuckleheads ignore.
They cannot put names-to-claims in the first place

---------
@ The
UNTOLD
---------
*The 'How do you get to Carnegie Hall' thing
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 06:52:08 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2021, 08:21:53 PM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2021, 10:04:54 PM »
Three "perfect shots"? Wouldn't one "perfect" shot be enough? He missed with his first, missed - missed as in killing - with his second, and then about 8-9 seconds after the first hit the target on his third shot. He missed the first at nearly point blank range. Missed or deflected.

I think if you need to take three shots to kill a man you can't characterize the first two as "perfect shots." Unless he was trying to miss with the first two? In which case, never mind.

Oswald haunted pools halls, and the angled arm of the light standard cued him into trying to bounce a round and ding the womanizer. The second round was not heard by either party because they were busy either clearing their throat or being in shock, and the third round was meant as a warning shot but since Oswald didn't practice, practice, practice according to people who weren't anywhere to be seen, he hit nothing but the atmosphere instead of JFK's cheatin' heart..

------------------------------------
And now for a brief intermission
------------------------------------

Your Cheatin' Heart _Hank Williams

And now back to @TheForum regular programming
« Last Edit: November 13, 2021, 10:51:24 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2021, 10:04:54 PM »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2021, 02:03:50 AM »
Well, there seems to be an awful lot of evidence that the first shot struck JFK. The large body of consistent witness recollections of the 1.......2...3 shot spacing with the last two shots in rapid succession in itself is inconsistent with a first shot miss. And there are at least 22 witnesses who said it struck JFK.  There is no evidence at all to contradict the Connally's evidence that JBC was struck on the second shot   The second shot striking JBC is corroborated by several witnesses: Dave Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, and George Hickey. We can see the damage of the third shot. So what evidence is there of a missed shot? Start with evidence that contradicts the evidence that the first shot struck JFK. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 02:35:13 AM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2021, 02:03:50 AM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2021, 03:57:13 AM »
Well, there seems to be an awful lot of evidence that the first shot struck JFK. The large body of consistent witness recollections of the 1.......2...3 shot spacing with the last two shots in rapid succession in itself is inconsistent with a first shot miss. And there are at least 22 witnesses who said it struck JFK.  There is no evidence at all to contradict the Connally's evidence that JBC was struck on the second shot   The second shot striking JBC is corroborated by several witnesses: Dave Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, and George Hickey. We can see the damage of the third shot. So what evidence is there of a missed shot? Start with evidence that contradicts the evidence that the first shot struck JFK.

The second shot striking JBC is corroborated by several witnesses: Dave Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, and George Hickey
_Then they were obviously eyeballing the guv, not Kennedy, when the womanizer was busy ducking Jackie's punches and being struck by cs399 at supersonic speed

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2021, 03:57:13 AM »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2021, 06:03:07 PM »
The second shot striking JBC is corroborated by several witnesses: Dave Powers, Gayle Newman, Wm. Greer, and George Hickey
_Then they were obviously eyeballing the guv, not Kennedy, when the womanizer was busy ducking Jackie's punches and being struck by cs399 at supersonic speed
??

As far as the witnesses who provided corroboration that the second shot struck JBC in the back:

  • Powers was directly behind both men and after JFK moved left he said he was able to see both.  He said could see JBC until just after the second shot when JBC disappeared from his view. JBC would only have disappeared from his view when he fell back onto Nellie.
  • The car had just passed Gayle and William Newman so both men were within their field of vision.
  • Wm. Greer turned around for the first time immediately after (almost simultaneous with) the second shot and saw Connally falling back onto his wife. So Greer wasn't watching either until he turned around.  He turns from z280 or some time just before z280 until z284.
  • George Hickey was watching JFK.  He did not see JBC hit by the shot.  What he said he observed was simply that the hair on the right side of JFK's head flew up when the second shot sounded so it seemed to just miss his head. If it just missed his head, it could not have missed the car.  JFK's hair flies up on the right side from z273-276.

We don't need JBC to say that JFK reacted to the first shot.  There are 60+ witnesses, including Nellie, who provided evidence that JFK was struck by the first shot.  The question is whether JBC was struck in the back by the second. Both Nellie Connally and Governor Connally said that JBC was not hit in the back on the first shot. JBC said he felt the forceful impact of the bullet that struck him in the back well after he heard the first shot.   Nellie said she watched JFK reacting to his neck wound before the second shot that struck her husband. That is the primary evidence that JBC was hit on the second shot.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2021, 07:29:14 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2021, 06:03:07 PM »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: 3D Modeling
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2021, 01:10:38 AM »
If Mr Andrew Mason is correct then 3 shots were fired in about 4.8 secs.

It matches well with Harold Norman’s (closest ear witness to the shooter ) boom clack clack spacing.

There has been suggestion made that the “clack clack” noise may be the “clink clink” noise of shells bouncing rather than manual bolt operation.

If so then a semi auto rifle such as an FN-FAL with larger scope centrally mounted , could have been the rifle used.

Such rifle seen by Arnold Rowland from distance when shooter was at SW window at 12;15 , could have been mistaken as an 30.06 hunting rifle much more probably than the MC rifle with scope mounted to side.

The FN-FALcould  be disassembled (barrel removed from receiver )such that both parts could be Possibly hidden  under a jacket . Or brought into the building in a 24” length package?

The shooter would need an accomplice to help use the East elevator to descend to the 2nd floor and exit out into storage room at approximately 45sec post shots

(Note: this possibly resolves the Mrs Garner by the 4th floor staircase and Adams and Styles descending staircase not seeing anyone on the staircase.)

Accomplice returns elevator to 5th floor and locks it there by 60sec post shots,

(Note: elevator travel speed approx 5 sec per floor based on WC testimony of approx 30 sec time to travel from
1st floor to 6th floor.)

The rifle could be temporarily hidden in the storage room or lunchroom just before Baker/Truly reach 2nd floor landing approx 85-90 sec post shots.

 

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