Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Mark me down as one of the "silly" ones who thinks you can only reach reliable conclusions if they are based on the evidence. Silly of me to question the phantom missing shot hitting the phantom traffic light pole without leaving a trace, and without a sound registering on any of the hundreds of people nearby.  I should just listen to Max Holland because it is such a neat theory.

There are 3 bits of physical evidence for a ricochet offa the signal arm.
(1) Bits of lead on back of jfk's head (xray).
(2) CE567 & CE569 in the limo.
(3) The hole in the floor of the limo.

(4) Then we have lots of (say 12) ear-witnesses who said that there was a bang just as thejfklimo straightened up or somesuch.

Re the 100s of people nearby, we have only heard from a small fraction of them.
Re your reliable witnesses, none of them heard the actual first shot, hence they said that the first shot was at about Z218-224, hence many of them said that there were only 2 shots, so we can easily dismiss them witnesses, they heard the 2nd shot & the flurry of Hickey's shots (which would have sounded like one shot to some).

I said we can dismiss them -- i take that back -- by saying that there were only 2 shots they are in fact confirming that there was an earlier shot (that they didnt hear), hence they support a shot being at Z113.

Holland is to be congratulated for pointing out that the first shot hit the signal arm.
But, he then reckons that the ricochet slug then hits the road, & that then CE567 & CE569 (the copper jackets) bounce up into the limo.
Or, i forget which, he reckons that the ricochet slug ends up causing the wounding of Tague (on the left cheek). Or was it Donohue that said that?
Anyhow, neither of these are possible.
But, Holland & Donahue & Menninger & McLaren are my heroes nonetheless.

And, then, li'l ol' me comes along & explains everything, in about 4 months of brilliant detective work.
Shucks -- i must be a genius.
 

[Andrew Mason]

There are 3 bits of physical evidence for a ricochet offa the signal arm.
(1) Bits of lead on back of jfk's head (xray).

If there were bits of lead on the back of JFK's head, isn't it more likely to be the result of the bullet that struck him in the head?  The impact of the bullet on the skull will have caused the copper jacket to deform pushing lead out the back of the bullet.  From 6:16 this video shows an open-ended jacketed bullet hitting something hard:

(2) CE567 & CE569 in the limo.
(3) The hole in the floor of the limo.

Are you serious? CE567 and CE569 are much more likely to be from a bullet or bullets that impacted in the car.  As far as there being a hole in the floor from a bullet, perhaps you could show us the evidence.  Are you suggesting it was made by CE567/9? 

(4) Then we have lots of (say 12) ear-witnesses who said that there was a bang just as thejfklimo straightened up or somesuch.

Re the 100s of people nearby, we have only heard from a small fraction of them.
Re your reliable witnesses, none of them heard the actual first shot, hence they said that the first shot was at about Z218-224,

Now you are just making stuff up.  That is absurd. The motorcade witnesses, dozens of witnesses along Elm put the first shot much later and they all heard 3 shots.  At least 22 witnesses said JFK reacted to the first shot. 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

If there were bits of lead on the back of JFK's head, isn't it more likely to be the result of the bullet that struck him in the head?  The impact of the bullet on the skull will have caused the copper jacket to deform pushing lead out the back of the bullet.  From 6:16 this video shows an open-ended jacketed bullet hitting something hard:

It aint "if", there are bits of lead on the back of JFK's head.
There is no way that these bits of lead could have come from a clean slug hitting JFK's head.
Tests would show. Even a hollow-point would not do it.
That there slo-mo footage of i think a hollow-point at 6:19 of the 9:13 is impressive, the slug disintegrates throo 360deg, whereas the ordinary slugs didn’t disintegrate so easily, some going clean throo the steel plate or whatever.

The footage supports my theory that Hickey's 2nd last shot at say Z310 put the dent in the chrome trim above the mirror.
The hard & loose stainless steel of the trim over the steel rectangular tube of the frame was enuff to stop Hickey's hollow-point slug from his AR15, even at 3,100 ft/s.
A month ago on this forum an ex-service guy said  that an AR15 would put a hole in the chrome trim.
But he of course had no experience with hollow-points (even tho he averages over 20,000 shots per year).
And, he had no experience with chrome trim.
And, i doubt that he ever saw that there footage.

Are you serious? CE567 and CE569 are much more likely to be from a bullet or bullets that impacted in the car.  As far as there being a hole in the floor from a bullet, perhaps you could show us the evidence.  Are you suggesting it was made by CE567/9? 

The hole was made by Oswald's first shot sometime tween Z124 & Z104.
This ricocheted offa the signal arm (offa the western guyrod).
The remnant slug made the hole.
CE567 & 569 landed in the limo without doing any damage.
I mentioned the hole, & the FBI letter, in my thread –
Did Oswald's first shot put a hole in the floor of JFK's limo?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg108235.html#msg108235

1961 Lincoln Continental Presidential Limousine, Steel Plate Floor Added during "Quick Fix," 1964. After President John F. Kennedy's assassination on November 22, 1963, the Hess & Eisenhardt Company of Cincinnati, Ohio, rebuilt the 1961 Lincoln Continental Presidential Limousine into an armored car. The floor was reinforced with 1/8-inch thick steel plate to protect against blasts from grenades or mines. Other portions of the car were armored with 3/8-inch thick titanium plate.

Now you are just making stuff up.  That is absurd. The motorcade witnesses, dozens of witnesses along Elm put the first shot much later and they all heard 3 shots.  At least 22 witnesses said JFK reacted to the first shot.

Allow me to introduce a witness, Kellerman.
Kellerman said that at the first shot JFK said my god i have been hit.
Yes, he had been bit by small bits of lead, on the back of his head.

[Andrew Mason]

The hole was made by Oswald's first shot sometime tween Z124 & Z104.
This ricocheted offa the signal arm (offa the western guyrod).
The remnant slug made the hole.
CE567 & 569 landed in the limo without doing any damage.
I mentioned the hole, & the FBI letter, in my thread –
Did Oswald's first shot put a hole in the floor of JFK's limo?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg108235.html#msg108235

The document that you cited specifically says that no hole was found in the limo floor.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

The document that you cited specifically says that no hole was found in the limo floor.

Yes, the SS did not see a hole, & the FBI did not see a hole, in November.
But Detroit/Cincinnati saw a hole in December, after removing the carpet etc.
Then in 1964 the FBI did not look for a hole (they merely asked the SS about the hole)(& the SS said there was no hole).
And we can say that the SS either did not look for a hole, or, if the SS did look & find a hole, they kept the hole a secret (& denied its existence).
I could not find a copy of that Dec 63 magazine or article. Did it include a pix of the hole.
The hole is probly still there -- under the new plating -- at the Ford museum -- if anyone cares to look.
U would need to raise the limo -- & look up around the driveshaft -- the hole is on the centerline -- the driveshaft might have a ding too.
I guess that the President's Commission (ie the WC) did not pursue this reported hole.
I am not sure at what date the WC & Co decided that Oswald's first shot missed -- at which time the hole would of course have been welcome -- but producing the hole at that late date would have risked the uncovering of their history of lieing -- no, not worth it.
And, for some reason, Robin Unger refuses to show the pix of the hole, & a pix of the FBI internal memo, in his photo gallery.
Even tho the hole does not contradict his favorit theory that Oswald fired 3 shots including the fatal headshot.
The hole is not nice & round -- hence it confirms the ricochet offa the (western guyrod of the) signal arm.

[Andrew Mason]

Yes, the SS did not see a hole, & the FBI did not see a hole, in November.
But Detroit/Cincinnati saw a hole in December, after removing the carpet etc.

It is odd that there would be a hole in the floor but not in the carpet.  So is your theory that someone shot him from below? 

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

It is odd that there would be a hole in the floor but not in the carpet.  So is your theory that someone shot him from below?

Yes -- i had forgotten about that -- the old carpet will hav a hole -- but i suppose that the bloodstained carpet was burnt or went into the rubbish dump on or about 23 Nov 63.
I dont know whether carpet tween the jump seats (which is where the hole is/was) was a separate piece to the bloody carpet at the back seat.

[Andrew Mason]

Yes -- i had forgotten about that -- the old carpet will hav a hole -- but i suppose that the bloodstained carpet was burnt or went into the rubbish dump on or about 23 Nov 63.
I dont know whether carpet tween the jump seats (which is where the hole is/was) was a separate piece to the bloody carpet at the back seat.

Here is a photo taken in the White House garage on the evening of Nov 22/63:



It shows two separate pieces of carpet.  Do you really think that the agents who pored over the car would have missed a bullet hole in the floor?

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Here is a photo taken in the White House garage on the evening of Nov 22/63:
It shows two separate pieces of carpet.  Do you really think that the agents who pored over the car would have missed a bullet hole in the floor?

Do u really think that the boss-agent who got a report from the agents who saw a bullet hole in the floor would have gone running to the police & reporters & (gasping for oxygen), would have blurted ---
"there's a gasp gasp bullet hole in the gasp gasp floor".

This is the same boss-agent who told Hickey to keep the 6 hot AR15 casings in his pocket (they could smell the casings at the hozzie)(plus they could smell the AR15 at the hozzie).
This is the same boss-agent who told his agents to keep quiet re shot-1 being at the signals at Z113 (a very early shot makes the SS look even worse).
And re Hickey's accidental auto burst of say 6 shots (Powers did not ever deny that he heard the deafening AR15 shots just inches from his left earhole).
And re the big dent in the chrome trim above the mirror (in fact the boss-agent said that the dent was already there from an accident many moons before).
And (at first) re the cracked windshield & the bits of lead on the glass at the center of the cracks.
This is the same boss-agent who snatched Jfk's body -- & jfk's brain -- & jfk photos -- but somehow wasnt concerned about anyone finding out about the hole in the limo floor.

Whatshisname from Ford, who replaced the carpet, would have seen the hole in the carpet & the hole in the floor.
And, he would ordinarily have kept the bloody carpet for his own private collection.
But, he did not keep the carpet (koz he woz not allowed) -- which suggests that there was indeed a hole.
And, the replacing of the carpet, rather than simply cleaning it (either in-situ or ex-situ), suggests a hole.

[Andrew Mason]

Do u really think that the boss-agent who got a report from the agents who saw a bullet hole in the floor would have gone running to the police & reporters & (gasping for oxygen), would have blurted ---
"there's a gasp gasp bullet hole in the gasp gasp floor".

This is the same boss-agent who told Hickey to keep the 6 hot AR15 casings in his pocket (they could smell the casings at the hozzie)(plus they could smell the AR15 at the hozzie).
This is the same boss-agent who told his agents to keep quiet re shot-1 being at the signals at Z113 (a very early shot makes the SS look even worse).
And re Hickey's accidental auto burst of say 6 shots (Powers did not ever deny that he heard the deafening AR15 shots just inches from his left earhole).
And re the big dent in the chrome trim above the mirror (in fact the boss-agent said that the dent was already there from an accident many moons before).
And (at first) re the cracked windshield & the bits of lead on the glass at the center of the cracks.
This is the same boss-agent who snatched Jfk's body -- & jfk's brain -- & jfk photos -- but somehow wasnt concerned about anyone finding out about the hole in the limo floor.

Whatshisname from Ford, who replaced the carpet, would have seen the hole in the carpet & the hole in the floor.
And, he would ordinarily have kept the bloody carpet for his own private collection.
But, he did not keep the carpet (koz he woz not allowed) -- which suggests that there was indeed a hole.
And, the replacing of the carpet, rather than simply cleaning it (either in-situ or ex-situ), suggests a hole.

I see.  Sorry, I thought we were discussing evidence.