Author Topic: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?  (Read 1746 times)

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2021, 08:20:29 AM »
I saw a youtube yesterday where Groden said that the lamp poles on the northern side of Elm St had been shifted off the footpath for safety reasons.
This could be a trap if unknowingly mixing old & new photos etc for triangulating a location.



« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 08:23:39 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2021, 02:13:56 AM »
Here is a giff i found on this forum -- i forget where, & who.
It shows Hoffman's Falcon in a Bell early sequence.
I could make a giff of Hoffman's Falcon stopping in Bell's much later sequence, but there are only about 4 frames, mostly blurry, not worth it.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 07:59:57 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2021, 10:46:32 PM »
I reckon that Bell took footage from 3 locations, shown by the stars.
I triangulated various features in various frames.
1. Here Bell is on a pedestal at the North Peristyle (as seen in the photo).


Your position no. 1 is slightly incorrect.  Bell was standing on the pedestal just east of the North Peristyle marked here with the small circle (although I think you have it a bit too far east):



This position allowed him to see across Elm to the front doors of the TSBD, as seen in the first part of his film (last clear frame before he stops filiming and changes position):



The pedestal is seen here on Street View (Google Maps) of Dealey Plaza.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 11:05:03 PM by Andrew Mason »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2021, 09:12:02 PM »
Your position no. 1 is slightly incorrect.  Bell was standing on the pedestal just east of the North Peristyle marked here with the small circle (although I think you have it a bit too far east):



This position allowed him to see across Elm to the front doors of the TSBD, as seen in the first part of his film (last clear frame before he stops filiming and changes position):



The pedestal is seen here on Street View (Google Maps) of Dealey Plaza.

Yes u are correct. Triangulation shows that Bell was on the eastern part of the pedestal wall.
Hmmm -- so, he could easily get to pozzy 2 (or a bit west of 2) by jumping down & going south then west then north, rather than jumping down & going west to the barrier & then jumping over the barrier & down onto the garden bed.


« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 10:20:44 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2021, 04:05:40 PM »
Yes u are correct. Triangulation shows that Bell was on the eastern part of the pedestal wall.
Hmmm -- so, he could easily get to pozzy 2 (or a bit west of 2) by jumping down & going south then west then north, rather than jumping down & going west to the barrier & then jumping over the barrier & down onto the garden bed.


Bell told Richard Trask (Pictures of the Pain, p. 264) that his view of the President's car was blocked by a tree so, he said, "I jumped down from the thing that I was on and ran around to the end of it so that I could get a better picture. That's when the shots were fired, when I was down. Probably not more than 5 to 10 seconds."  Trask writes (p. 267): "Just after the shots had been fired and upon reaching the end of the peristyle, Bell immediately began filming."

I put the position of the President's car in the last frame of Bell's film before he moves off the pedestal to be about half a car length (10 zframes) before the position of the car seen in Zapruder's frame 133. The position of the car when he resumes filming is about frame z435.  The time between those positions is about 312 zframes or about 17 seconds.  It is not clear whether Bell was estimating the time he was down between film segments or the duration of the shots. 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 09:43:22 PM by Andrew Mason »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2021, 07:33:05 AM »
Bell told Richard Trask (Pictures of the Pain, p. 264) that his view of the President's car was blocked by a tree so, he said, "I jumped down from the thing that I was on and ran around to the end of it so that I could get a better picture. That's when the shots were fired, when I was down. Probably not more than 5 to 10 seconds."  Trask writes (p. 267): "Just after the shots had been fired and upon reaching the end of the peristyle, Bell immediately began filming."

I put the position of the President's car in the last frame of Bell's film before he moves off the pedestal to be about half a car length (10 zframes) before the position of the car seen in Zapruder's frame 133. The position of the car when he resumes filming is about frame z435.  The time between those positions is about 312 zframes or about 17 seconds.  It is not clear whether Bell was estimating the time he was down between film segments or the duration of the shots.
I reckon that Bell's last frame was at Z095 to Z103, based on the vizible rear of the JFK limo in that frame being just past the wall of the pool.
As can be seen in my drawing the JFK limo in Bell's last frame is a half length short of where it was at Oswald's first shot at Z113 Oswald shot when JFK was in line with the overhead signal arm (viewed from Oswald's window).
If the limo takes say 10 Z-frames to go a half  limo length then that makes it Z103.
And at Z113 the limo was one limo length short of where it was at Z133 (based on a limo speed of 20 ft in 20 frames).
But if the limo was going slower, then Oswald's shot-1 might have been at say Z110, & the JFK limo at Bell's last frame of that sequence might have been at say Z095.
So, i reckon that the JFK limo at Bell's last frame is 1.5 limo lengths short of Z133. U reckon 0.5 L short.

« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 08:09:25 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2021, 08:28:36 PM »
I reckon that Bell's last frame was at Z095 to Z103, based on the vizible rear of the JFK limo in that frame being just past the wall of the pool.
As can be seen in my drawing the JFK limo in Bell's last frame is a half length short of where it was at Oswald's first shot at Z113 Oswald shot when JFK was in line with the overhead signal arm (viewed from Oswald's window).
If the limo takes say 10 Z-frames to go a half  limo length then that makes it Z103.
And at Z113 the limo was one limo length short of where it was at Z133 (based on a limo speed of 20 ft in 20 frames).
But if the limo was going slower, then Oswald's shot-1 might have been at say Z110, & the JFK limo at Bell's last frame of that sequence might have been at say Z095.
So, i reckon that the JFK limo at Bell's last frame is 1.5 limo lengths short of Z133. U reckon 0.5 L short.



You first have to get the position of the car at z133 correct.  Roberdeau's map, I think, is pretty close.  You can determine the position of the limo in relation to the left painted lane stripe.  It is about a third of the way along that second land stripe at z133 and the front of the car is well short of the cement-grass border where Croft is standing.  On Roberdeau's map, that is the position of the green rectangle representing the limo at z133:



The red rectangle represents the position of the car with the sightline from Bell to the left rear wheel of the limo.  That looks like about a half-car-length different (between red and green) to me. A half car length is about 10 feet or 10 frames.

Your problem, however, is that Bell said that all three shots occurred in the 17 seconds between that last frame of the early Elm St. section and the first frame when he resumed filming.  But Bell is not alone in that.  Towner, Croft, Betzner, Altgens and Willis all put the first shot much later than Holland's theory.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 08:30:41 PM by Andrew Mason »

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2021, 11:25:18 PM »
You first have to get the position of the car at z133 correct.  Roberdeau's map, I think, is pretty close.  You can determine the position of the limo in relation to the left painted lane stripe.  It is about a third of the way along that second land stripe at z133 and the front of the car is well short of the cement-grass border where Croft is standing.  On Roberdeau's map, that is the position of the green rectangle representing the limo at z133:



The red rectangle represents the position of the car with the sightline from Bell to the left rear wheel of the limo.  That looks like about a half-car-length different (between red and green) to me. A half car length is about 10 feet or 10 frames.

Your problem, however, is that Bell said that all three shots occurred in the 17 seconds between that last frame of the early Elm St. section and the first frame when he resumed filming.  But Bell is not alone in that.  Towner, Croft, Betzner, Altgens and Willis all put the first shot much later than Holland's theory.
Yes, i dont recall ever doing a very accurate analysis of the exact pozzy of thejfklimo at Z133, hence my blue rectangle is based on the work of others.
But i would be surprized if it was as much as 0.5 L out.
But i can guarantee that my Z113 red rectangle is ok to say 1 ft.
And my black Z103 rectangle is ok to say 1 ft.
When i say ok, i mean ok re pozzy of limo distance-wize, not frame-wize -- frame-wize needs much info re limo speed etc.
I just then had another look at youtube of Bell -- & re my black rectangle at Z103 i think i should have drawn it (the rear of the limo) a fraction of a foot to the east -- so i am puzzled why u think it should be further west.

It looks to me that the road-stripes are fairly accurately drawn.
In the red rectangle u can see that at Z113 Nellie Connally (sitting at mid limo) was level with the end of the white stripe on her left.
And this is the exact reference that i used (in about april 2021) for Oswald's shot-1 using Towner's frames.

So, Oswald's shot-1 at Z113 was 10 ft after Bell stopped filming, about 0.5 sec, so, Bell was in mid-air jumping down offa the pedestal, or, praps Bell's boots were impacting concrete.
Anyhow, Bell didnt hear shot-1.
And he didnt hear Oswald's shot-2 at about Z218.
And he didnt hear Hickey's auto burst starting at i reckon about Z299 & ending at we know Z313 (4 or 5 or 6 shots in say 15 frames).
But i am surprized at why Bell didnt start filming earlier -- u reckon that he took 17 sec (to scram around to his new pozzy, while winding his camera) -- but he had no real reason to hurry -- obviously he hadnt planned on trying to get more good footage of thejfklimo -- it was an afterthort.

Tina Towner said that the first shot was 2 sec after she stopped filming.
And she has said 4 sec after.
More recently she said that the shot was at about the same time -- just before or just after.
The first shot was at T137 (my own analysis).
And her last frame was T142.
The bullet hit the signal arm at T138.
The bang hit Tina's ears at T139.
Parts of Tina's brain heard the bang at T140.
They informed other parts of Tina's brain at T141.
Tina would have initiated a startle reaction at T142.
Tina's startle reaction would have jiggled her camera at T143.
But there was no T143. Her last frame was T142.

Re the Croft, Betzner, Altgens and Willis timings for shot-1 -- they were mistaken.
Reaction analysis by Roselle & Scearce indicates that shot-1 was fired at Z124 -- they were mistaken -- Oswald shot at Z111 (slug hit at Z112)(bang hit at Z113).

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2021, 06:32:42 AM »
Ok i have triangulated thejfklimo at Z133, & it is almost exactly as per my original blue rectangle.
I used frame Z133, plus some of the earlier frames, to triangulate.
The front left corner of thejfklimo was in frame Z133 on an alignment 2.9 ft outside the kerbline of the southwest corner, & 1.5 ft west of the end of the painted stripe.
The blue rectangle might possibly need to be moved back say 1 ft east, or say 2 or 3 or 4 ft east if we agree that my blue rectangle is drawn too far away (north) of the painted stripe, but i find it difficult to agree with 10 ft east (thejfklimo would have to be hard up to the stripe).

Actually, moving thejfklimo back 10 ft at Z133 helps my theory.
Actually, early this year, i had adopted it back 10 ft at Z133, but later i adopted the blue rectangle.
By adopting it back 10 ft it places Oswald's shot-1 at say Z121 instead of my current Z111 (these are true trigger timings, not the sound of the bang)(the sound of the bang would be Z113).
And, Roselle & Scearce have nominated shot-1 as being at Z124 plus or minus (i think) 3 frames (true trigger timing)(not the sound of the bang).
So, my Z121 is at their acceptable limit.
So, no-one would be happier than me to find out that thejfklimo (at Z133) was 10 ft east of the blue rectangle.
But Roselle & Scearce were talking about voluntary reaction times, not startle reaction times, & voluntary reactions can vary by miles, so, i still favor that Oswald squeezed the trigger at close to Z111 rather than Z121.

But, pozzy wize, we now know where thejfklimo was to almost the inch -- it was when jfk's back was in line with the overhead signal arm.
And re the  left/right pozzy of thejfklimo, in the center lane, (we now know that) it was when jfk's back was a few inches north of the collar holding the 2 guy rods.
The slug hit the outside of the western guy rod, say a little less than 1 foot from the collar.
Small bits of lead show up in xrays on the back of jfk's head.
CE567 & CE569 are the 2 halves of the copper jacket (all copper jackets are made in 2 halves), that were found in the limo.
The remnant slug made a hole in the floor, tween Nellie & John, found when the limo was re-built in Dec 1963 (FBI letter).
And silly experts on this forum still argue whether the first shot was at Z160 or Z180 or somesuch.
And then Oswald's shot-2 was at about Z216, the magic bullet, which landed at about Z218 -- about 105 frames after shot-1 (5.7 sec).
And experts on this forum argue that it was at Z222 or Z224 or somesuch (however the exact timing here, ie landing at Z218 or Z224, is of almost zero importance).
The timing does have a minor interest re Connally's lapel flip at Z224.
And (we know that) Oswald had already stood up & back from the window when he saw Hickey kill jfk at Z313.
Surprizingly, (we know that) Oswald had already decided not to fire his last bullet before he had seen Hickey kill jfk.
How could Oswald be sure that his shot-2 was good???.
JFK didnt throw his arms up in the air & crash throo the rails & drop down onto a bar below.
JFK didnt stand up & grab hold of himself & topple backwards onto the tarmac.
Anyhow, as it happened, (we know that) standing up & back gave Oswald a second or two start for getting down to his meeting with Baker at the lunchroom.
Which took about 48 sec (to get to the 2nd floor)(but he didnt meet Baker untill say 80 sec).

Anyhow, Bell stopped filming when thejfklimo was 9 ft shy of where it was when Oswald squeezed the trigger.
And when thelimo had gone say another 1 ft (which brings it to 10 ft) the slug hit the signal arm.
Which equates to say 10 Zapruder frames, after Bell stopped filming.
And Betzner Altgens Willis Croft & Zapruder & Co didnt hear.


« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 11:03:24 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: Mark Bell Mark Bell -- where were thou?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2021, 10:36:28 PM »

And silly experts on this forum still argue whether the first shot was at Z160 or Z180 or somesuch.

Mark me down as one of the "silly" ones who thinks you can only reach reliable conclusions if they are based on the evidence. Silly of me to question the phantom missing shot hitting the phantom traffic light pole without leaving a trace, and without a sound registering on any of the hundreds of people nearby.  I should just listen to Max Holland because it is such a neat theory.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 10:37:53 PM by Andrew Mason »

 

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