Author Topic: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963  (Read 916 times)

Offline John Mytton

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2021, 05:56:19 AM »
Police officers recognize gunfire more than the average civilian..

Over a dozen of them said they heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area.

Some said they heard shots from both the Knoll and TSBD.

I know that ear and eye witnesses arenít the most reliable evidence but if dozens of people, including police officers, reported hearing shots fired from that direction, then it means something mightíve happened there.

Having a second shooter makes perfect sense as a plan B if one assassin fails to get the kill shot.

Most Americans didnít see the Zapruder film or even know it existed until the 1970s.

Why are you ignoring the significant impact of my post and deferring to your default position of appeal to authority? This has zero to do with recognizing gunfire per se, as we are discussing locating two loud audio sources from either end of Dealey Plaza and it doesn't take a trained brain to calculate the difference in the loudness and perceived direction of these sounds.
The majority of earwitnesses were between the Depository and the Grassy Knoll and the vast majority of these earwitnesses say the loud sounds emanated from either one end of Dealey Plaza or the other end, and there was only a tiny amount of earwitnesses who say that these loud sounds came from multiple directions.
Thus all the loud sounds came only from one direction and since we know that both Kennedy and Connally were struck from behind, it can only follow that ALL the shots came from behind, there can be no other conclusion.
You yourself state that "Over a dozen of them said they heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area." and only "Some said they heard shots from both the Knoll and TSBD", meaning that those Police Officers who thought they heard ALL the shots from the Grassy Knoll area by definition must be wrong because we know beyond all doubt that both men were struck from behind.

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Offline John Mytton

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2021, 06:43:12 AM »
"the classic position of "behind the fence on the Knoll" 
How were they supposed to know how to get there? Oh I know...high hurdle.
"till much much later"
Much much later as opposed to just much later or a little while later or the next day?
 
The Hughes film should clear that up a bit-------
 

Thanks Jerry, your video did clear up a lot of things but not how you wanted, in the Zapruder Film there was bugger all people on the grassy area between Elm and Main street and your video shows a plethora of people who were running from a position who would have next to no chance of knowing the origin of the shots, and these people and others like them who also had little idea of where the shots came from, are the ones we later see running up the Knoll steps and those that are in the Railway yard. Thanks again!



Btw your attempt at comedy of "high hurdling" the fence doesn't make sense because if these concerned citizens were in fact intent on locating where they thought the sniper was, they could easily peek over the fence but as seen in the earliest photos, these witnesses totally ignored the the fence and ran straight on by! Another hit and miss.



JohnM

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2021, 07:45:31 AM »
Police officers recognize gunfire more than the average civilian..

   Of course

Quote
Over a dozen of them said they heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area.

    Perhaps they did 
Quote
  Some said they heard shots from both the Knoll and TSBD.
    And perhaps they did 
 
Why are you ignoring the significant impact of my post and deferring to your default position of appeal to authority? 
Oh boo hoo it probably needs to be ignored.
Quote
Thus all the loud sounds came only from one direction and since we know that both Kennedy and Connally were struck from behind, it can only follow that ALL the shots came from behind, there can be no other conclusion.
You made a broad assumption and left out other possibilities.
Quote
You yourself state that "Over a dozen of them said they heard shots from the Grassy Knoll area."[several people did] and only "Some said they heard shots from both the Knoll and TSBD", meaning that those Police Officers who thought they heard ALL the shots from the Grassy Knoll area by definition must be wrong because we know beyond all doubt that both men were struck from behind.

Speculation.. yes, both men were struck from behind. But that does not mean that all shots were fired from the 6th floor [even though shell casings were left to roll around. It also does not mean that there were positively no shots fired from the front. It just doesn't fit everybody's bedtime story.   

Thanks Jerry, your video did clear up a lot of things but not how you wanted, in the Zapruder Film there was bugger all people on the grassy area between Elm and Main street and your video shows a plethora of people who were running from a position who would have next to no chance of knowing the origin of the shots
So you say. What does bugger all people mean?
 
 
Quote
they could easily peek over the fence but as seen in the earliest photos, these witnesses totally ignored the the fence and ran straight on by! 
Looking for a way around it I would figure.
But you said---The problem is NOBODY ran immediately to the classic position of "behind the fence on the Knoll" till much much later.---
What is you idea of the classic position? and how long is much much ...as you have failed to reply.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2021, 08:04:24 AM »
What does bugger all people mean?
 

"bugger all" noun
Definition of bugger all
slang, British
: NOTHING

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bugger%20all

JohnM

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2021, 04:01:38 PM »
"bugger all" ...slang, British
: NOTHING
I guess I could have looked that one up. I thought it was the mis-spelling of a piece of dried nasal mucus.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2021, 08:08:13 PM »
I am of the firm opinion that 3 shots were fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD (although not by Oswald).
A major problem for this opinion is the amount of ear-witnesses who heard shots coming from the west of the TSBD (railroad/grassy knoll area).

In her WC testimony, Geneva Hine describes how intense the sound of the shots was in the building:

Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How do you know that?
Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

Hine was on the second floor so the sound on the 6th floor must've been even more intense.

The pic below is taken from the Ted Hughes film and shows the south-western windows of the 6th floor open to their fullest extent.



Might it be possible that the sound of the booming, reverberating shots ("like a cannon") exploding out of these windows gave ear-witnesses the distinct impression the sound of the shots was coming from the west of the TSBD?

Just a thought.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2021, 08:50:20 PM »
I am of the firm opinion that 3 shots were fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD (although not by Oswald).
A major problem for this opinion is the amount of ear-witnesses who heard shots coming from the west of the TSBD (railroad/grassy knoll area).

In her WC testimony, Geneva Hine describes how intense the sound of the shots was in the building:

Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How do you know that?
Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

Hine was on the second floor so the sound on the 6th floor must've been even more intense.

The pic below is taken from the Ted Hughes film and shows the south-western windows of the 6th floor open to their fullest extent.



Might it be possible that the sound of the booming, reverberating shots ("like a cannon") exploding out of these windows gave ear-witnesses the distinct impression the sound of the shots was coming from the west of the TSBD?

Just a thought.

Dan, Do you believe that if the shots were fired from the 6th floor then the ladies at the windows on the fourth floor would have experienced even louder blasts than Mrs Hines?    ....And how about the three stooges who had their heads out of the fifth floor windows??   And if Mrs Hines senses were working, then she seems to be describing the blast from the muzzle of a rifle that was aimed in her general direction.  As I recall Mrs Hines was behind an EAST facing window on the second floor.... So if she heard the shots as " canon shots" then those shots most likely were fired from the west side of the Dal tex building which was across Houston street from the TSBD.   

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2021, 11:21:32 PM »
Dan, Do you believe that if the shots were fired from the 6th floor then the ladies at the windows on the fourth floor would have experienced even louder blasts than Mrs Hines?    ....And how about the three stooges who had their heads out of the fifth floor windows??   And if Mrs Hines senses were working, then she seems to be describing the blast from the muzzle of a rifle that was aimed in her general direction.  As I recall Mrs Hines was behind an EAST facing window on the second floor.... So if she heard the shots as " canon shots" then those shots most likely were fired from the west side of the Dal tex building which was across Houston street from the TSBD.   

Hine has no reason to be anything other than totally honest about her recollection of the shots.
Debris fell on the heads of the three stooges as a result of the shots.
Eddie Piper describes the first floor window as shaking.

Dal Tex??
Really?

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2021, 12:47:14 AM »
Hine has no reason to be anything other than totally honest about her recollection of the shots.
Debris fell on the heads of the three stooges as a result of the shots.
Eddie Piper describes the first floor window as shaking.

Dal Tex??
Really?

Yes... really.....  Even if you have no experience with fire arms common sense dictates that the closer you are to the source of the gun fire the louder the report.    AND the bang at the muzzle end of a rifle is much louder than the bang to the rear of the muzzle.....  In a confined space (Like the chasm between The TSBD and the Dal-Tex buildings) that muzzle blast is amplified.

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The grassy knoll gunmen on Nov 21st 1963
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2021, 12:23:51 AM »
Yes... really.....  Even if you have no experience with fire arms common sense dictates that the closer you are to the source of the gun fire the louder the report.    AND the bang at the muzzle end of a rifle is much louder than the bang to the rear of the muzzle.....  In a confined space (Like the chasm between The TSBD and the Dal-Tex buildings) that muzzle blast is amplified.

Bollocks

 

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