Author Topic: Why are Warren Report Defenders Trusting of testimony RE: TSBD to Texas Theatre?  (Read 812 times)

Online Mitch Todd

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[moved this for better clarity:] Mary = Gordon Arnolds wife, Gary = Gary Mack, Les = Gordon Arnold's son

Les:  Yes. The first time I really remember going into much detail about it at all was when Nigel Turner came through with The Men Who Killed Kennedy
documentary and was collecting stuff for that. And we, I remember talking to him about that, him deciding to go ahead and do that.
Gary: Did he talk to you about that first or to you?
Mary: He discussed it with me and said that the reason he decided to do it was because of his health problems, because he came so near to death and he said he
wanted some record of what he knew and he liked Nigel and felt that he was being truthful with him and would be truthful with him in everything. He said, “I would like to
go ahead and give him what knowledge I have of what happened.” And I said, “That’s fine.”

Gary: We’ll come back to that. Let’s, cause we’ve skipped ahead a little bit. It was the summer of 1978 when Gordon was on that jury and Howard Upchurch
talked to him. What happened next?

Mary: He was upset about it again because, like I said, it was an emotional thing for him and he didn’t want to talk about it. And I respected that and just.
Gary: Howard told his, told his story of meeting your husband to Earl
Golz, a reporter at The Dallas Morning News. At some point, and I was not involved at this point in time, but at some point Earl called Gordon and I assume Gordon then at
some point spoke to him and then told you what happened? What do you remember about all that?
Mary: I don’t remember very much at all. I just know that he was still very nervous about it, but he still talked to Mr. Golz and that’s really all I remember.
Les:  The impression that I got from Dad—and this was admittedly years later—but the impression I got from him was he was basically expecting to just be
discussing history. He was not expecting it to be published and, you know, thrown out there in the newspaper. And was rather upset by the fact that it was in the newspaper
because he still felt that there was the possibility…
Mary: Of a danger.
Les:  Of a retribution of some kind.
Gary: So when the story appeared, did he see it right away or did he hear about it later? What was his reactions when he learned, when he first learned the story
was in the newspaper?
Mary: He said he wished it had not happened because, there again, he was afraid of retribution. But he just kind of pushed it over to the side and ignored it.
Gary: Did he get any phone calls or letters?
Mary: Oh yes, oh yes, and he wouldn’t talk to anyone.
Gary: (0:30:05)  Did he get a lot of them?
Mary: Yes, he got quite a few right when it first came out. And when they would call and ask us, I even remember him telling someone they had the wrong
number, that he didn’t know anything about it.
Gary: So he never did any other interviews after Earl Golz until The Men Who Killed Kennedy?
Mary: Right.


Golz found out about Arnold because he told his story to someone he just met. How does that jive with this statement from Mary: "He was upset about it again because, like I said, it was an emotional thing for him and he didn’t want to talk about it"


BTW, here's an 11/30/1963 letter from Arnold to Mary. Notice something missing?

https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/32576/correspondence-between-gordon-arnold-and-mary-seymore-dated?ctx=7f67f5b2-ee69-41fc-9a40-80f3edc7bef2&idx=0

Online Richard Smith

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Tom would be a champion at the Kevin Bacon game.  As a JFK CT, however, he is many bricks short of a load.

Offline Tom Scully

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Tom would be a champion at the Kevin Bacon game.  As a JFK CT, however, he is many bricks short of a load.

Yeah, Richard, results are no indication of competence... the futility of firing a howitzer at a "lone nut".

From author Joan Mellen's, "Our Man in Haiti, George DeMohrenschildt"



Quote
Students Don Ear Muffs to Shut Out Band Music
Daily Boston Globe – Aug 14, 1947
… rhumba music yesterday asked the Boston Licensing Board to shut down
the Hotel … one of 16 Tech students livings in the adjoining Sigma Chi
fraternity house … Other student were Thomas Devine
of Rochester who
told of taking refuge in ..





https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14783#relPageId=4&search=garry_coit
1. MISCELLANEOUS DOCUMENTS FROM AARC CIA COLLECTION, BOX 113, pg 288
Found in: Miscellaneous CIA Series
Garry Coit SR/CA

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14783#relPageId=4&search=garry_coit
2. PARTIAL CONTACT REPORT ON MEETING WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON, 30-31 JAN, pg 1
Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 49
AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : CIA FROM : COIT
, GARRY, SR/CA TO : MFR TITLE : PARTIAL CONTACT REPORT ON MEETING WITH PRISCILLA JOHNSON, 30-31 JAN.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=14786#relPageId=2&search=garry_coit
3. LETTER, "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION" AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE, pg 1
Found in: HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 49
INFORMATION AGENCY : CIA RECORD NUMBER : 104-10135-10092 RECORD SERIES : JFK AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 80T01357A DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : CIA FROM : COIT
, GARRY TO : PRISCILLA TITLE : LETTER, "I AM TRANSFERRING TO ANOTHER SECTION" AND GIVING NAME OF ANOTHER PERSON TO CONTACT IN THE FUTURE.

Quote
http://jfkforum.com/2017/10/01/are-we-there-yet-part-ii/
...Tom Scully on July 20, 2017, 07:42:12 PM

……..
Priscilla Johnson fully inserted herself into Marina’s life by late July, 1964, as Katya and Declan Ford did the hand off to Priscilla. Priscilla’s CIA handler was Garrison Garry Coit. Coit and Thomas Devine and 15 other Sigma Chi frat brothers cohabited in their frat house on MIT campus from fall, 1944. Coit went to Naval radio school in late Sept., Devine followed two weeks later.

Devine had nine contacts with DeMohrenschildt from late April, 1963 through late May. Devine and his close friend Joseph F Dryer, Jr. met separately with DeMohrenschildt and Clemard Charles on 25 April, 1963.

In late Sept., 1964, Priscilla put herself and Marina under the domicile and hospitality of her first cousin David C. Davenport, later described by Sam Ballen as a former CIA man. Davenport’s obit refers to his intelligence work.
In December, 1964, news and FBI reports describe Marina and Priscilla residing in a Sedona, AZ apartment, transported and escorted by Jerome Hastings, close friend of Davenport, driving Davenport’s Corvair with Alaska plates. In July, 1965, Davenport and Hastings are sued in New Mexico by Hasting’s step-daughter, JoAnn McAdams,
first cousin of presidential assistant Clark Clifford. The suit describes Hastings as then second husband of Clifford’s aunt, Marguerite Bowman McAdams Hasty. In 1966, Jerome Hasty legally changed his name in New Mexico to Hastings.

At this link, I have documented that in 1978 HSCA counsel asked Priscilla Johnson Macmillan why her book, “Marina and Lee” was delayed at least a dozen years. See http://archive.is/esTuB
One excuse Priscilla offered was that she had experienced a bad period in which her father was a concealed suicide.
The last person reported to see Priscilla’s father Stuart alive and who reported him as missing to Locust Valley, LI police was James A. Thomas, a cousin of Allen Dulles whose sister Eleanor Lansing Thomas was maid of honor in Clover Dulles’s wedding.
....

Tom Devine was a member of this class (1944) of 20 boys. His father, Adrian Devine chaired the school's board of directors. Devine was yearbook editor of the remaining ten graduating students. Peter Dryer, brother and kenaf farming partner in Haiti with his brother Joseph, for example, transferred to Choate Academy.


After noticing Peter Dryer's name in Tom Devine's yearbook list of former classmates, I contacted
Joan Mellen, who had recently interviewed Peter's brother, Joseph F. Dryer, Jr.



Hawley Ward, at the bottom of the list above of Tom Devine's former classmates, was the brother
of the groom in this 1954 wedding party which also included Priscilla Johnson.



Hawley Ward left Devine's school to attend St. Paul's in Concord, NH and was a classmate there
of Priscilla's book editor, Marion Sims Wyeth, who had no problem giving Priscilla an extra decade to
complete her book while muzzling Marina... Hawley Ward was in editor Wyeth's wedding party, Priscilla had been in the wedding party (above) of Hawley Ward's brother...



And Priscilla's book editor M.S. Wyeth was in the wedding party of Cord Meyer's brother, along with the Meyer's brother's cousin, S. Willetts Meyer, who happened to be the best man in Ed Hooker's wedding in which George Bush was an usher. Hooker, if you recall, was George DeMohrenschildt's step-nephew and wildcat oil well drilling partner, as well as George Bush's roommate at the Andover, A.U.V. secret society house.



The CIA had to do handstands to make "all of this" appear to be unconnected, unremarkable....

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=84#relPageId=64&search=cogswell_and%20dryer
1. HSCA Report, Volume XII, pg 60
Found in: HSCA Appendix Volumes
"The information came from Jack Cogswell of Palm Beach.
According to Cogswell, he ran into Joseph Dryer, who is a stockbroker with Loeb & Rhodes & Co. in Palm Beach and Dryer offered informa- tion about George
de Mohrenschildt.(172) Dryer told Cogswell that when he knew de Mohrenshchildt in Haiti, de Mohrenschildt's behav- ior was "strange" and included following.."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217704#relPageId=178&search=cogswell_and%20dryer
1. Our Man in Haiti: George de Mohrenschildt and the CIA in the Nightmare Republic, pg 164
Found in: JFK Books
"CIA documents reveal that Cogswell was utilized by both the Agency and the FBI.
Cogswell became a source of intelligence for Joe Dryer. In particular, Cogswell kept an eye on de Mohrenschildt Mohrenschildt.
Dryer was not certain whether CIA placed Cogswell in Haiti or whether he had gone there voluntarily, but it was obvious that he was working for someone"



https://paw.princeton.edu/memorial/charles-leslie-rice-jr-’41
Memorial Charles Leslie Rice Jr. '41 - Princeton Alumni Weekly |
"...Following the war, Dean Mathey '12, Princeton's patron-saint trustee, benefactor, and Wall St. magician, recruited Les as his protege.
Having learned much from Mathey at Empire Trust Co., Les set out on his own. He was president and CEO of Gulf States Land & Industries, Inc., ..."

Imagine being John McCloy on the WC, especially in the executive sessions...



Tom Devine had "a hook" even John McCloy did not enjoy... his grandmother
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/102334174/louise-wolcott-dodge
...was a first cousin of Senator Jay (John D. IV) Rockefeller's grandfather...
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/126976919/blanchette-ferry-rockefeller



Quote
http://jfkforum.com/2017/10/01/are-we-there-yet-part-ii/
...1968 …
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/5939652/

Troth Is Announced Of Miss Williams, Henry C. Hurt Jr. Mr. and Mrs. George … Margaret Nolting, to Henry Charles Hurt Jr., of Kennebunkport, Maine, son of Mr…..

In 1977, Henry Hurt, son in law of brother of Freeport Sulphur chairman, Langbourne M. Williams Jr…… informs Billy Joe Lord that Jim Beamiss, actually fitting the description of Fitzgerald Bemiss, is exerting pressure to result in Lord granting an interview to Henry Hurt and Readers Digest. https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=65388323

Fitzgerald Bemiss was the son of Prescott Bush Kennebunkport friend and neighbor Sam Bemiss. Sam’s mom was a sister of Langbourne M. Williams Jr’s grandfather. Sam Bemiss mother.:
....

Online Jerry Freeman

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The point is that a jury in a criminal trial would have learned of some of these details because defense attorneys would have investigated the backgrounds of witnesses as the WC, DPD, and FBI should have but did not.
You give the attorneys more credit than they deserve. They were no better than the cops.

Online Otto Beck

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.

William W Whaley, moved his birth year back three years sometime after 1940,
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3071.msg115921.html#msg115921


Some interesting research but what would have been his motive and how does it impact his testimony?

Offline Tom Scully

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Some interesting research but what would have been his motive and how does it impact his testimony?

Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?

The taxi driver abandoned his small son, for life, who carried his name
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
...and he was bold enough to correct the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS over an insignificant detail. The jury is still out as to whether he told Dallas reporters he was an awarded WWII combat hero, but in fact, was not.

Not 25 miles to Lewisville, but precisely 26, not 36 years driving a taxi, but precisely 37. :
Quote
http://web.archive.org/web/20190811175231/http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm

...Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver?
Mr. WHALEY. 37 years.
Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in Dallas?
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is your residence?
Mr. WHALEY. 619 Pine Street, Route 2, Louisville, Tex., 26 miles north of Dallas.
....
The CHAIRMAN
. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36 years.
Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven....
The "keeper" of Whaley's online memorial has created and maintains over 25,000 such web pages. He replied in just a couple of days to the evidence I shared with him supporting the incorrect date of birth...


https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley


Published June 26, 1908, refers to "ten pound boy" arriving at the home of O.W. Whaley on the prior Friday evening, AKA, June 19, 1908. The article image is now in the image gallery of the Whaley grave page.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 03:25:28 PM by Tom Scully »

Online Otto Beck

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Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?

Sure, but if you keep digging I bet you will find somerhing on every witness in this case and then what?

Doesn't affect his testimony as such, and assuming that's where our focus should be, It"s much more  powerful to pick him apart by using his own testimony.

Like dropping Oswald off at an intersection that doesn't exist, if you see what I mean?!


Offline Tom Scully

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Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?

Sure, but if you keep digging I bet you will find somerhing on every witness in this case and then what?

Doesn't affect his testimony as such, and assuming that's where our focus should be, It"s much more  powerful to pick him apart by using his own testimony.

Like dropping Oswald off at an intersection that doesn't exist, if you see what I mean?!

Otto, I see what you mean, and your POV should be enough, but in practice it leaves too much "wiggle room" for LNs or a criminal prosecutor in 1964, for example, competent criminal defense attorney supported by a competent investigator, cross examining a prosecution witness like William W. Whaley, who was giving uncorroborated (like Mary Bledsoe and Earline Roberts) testimony.

Defense Atty: You say you've been driving a taxi in Dallas for 37 years. You look remarkably young for such lengthy experience, just how old are you?

Whaley, I'll turn 59, in June.

Defense Atty: Mr. Whaley, I have here a copy of your 1940 military draft registration. It is filled out in your own hand, correct? Why does the date of birth you wrote then, indicate you are three years younger today than the current age you just claimed you are?

....
Quote
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25889-why-officer-tippit-stopped-his-killer/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-402782
David Von Pein - Posted July 13, 2019

...A Whaley Addendum....

Based on William Whaley's 11/23/63 FBI interview, I think it's pretty clear that Whaley originally did think he had taken Oswald all the way to the 500 block of North Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff on 11/22/63. Whaley told the FBI on November 23rd that he "took the young man to the 500 block of Beckley Street".

But I think the key to knowing that Whaley was mistaken about the "500 block" is the fact that he always maintained—even in his first FBI interview the day after Oswald rode in his taxicab—that the fare for Oswald's cab ride was exactly "95 cents".

And Whaley's 11/22/63 manifest (or trip sheet) also confirms the fare for the Greyhound-to-Beckley trip as being 95 cents.

And we can see from the reconstructed cab rides that a trip in Whaley's cab that starts at the Greyhound bus station and ends at the intersection of Neely & Beckley would, in fact, be 95 cents....

« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 03:02:11 PM by Tom Scully »

Online Richard Smith

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Because it speaks to his credibility and to the state of his mental health. If he "vandalized" history, is this "vandalism" of his grave?

The taxi driver abandoned his small son, for life, who carried his name
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Whaley-18
...and he was bold enough to correct the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS over an insignificant detail. The jury is still out as to whether he told Dallas reporters he was an awarded WWII combat hero, but in fact, was not.

Not 25 miles to Lewisville, but precisely 26, not 36 years driving a taxi, but precisely 37. :The "keeper" of Whaley's online memorial has created and maintains over 25,000 such web pages. He replied in just a couple of days to the evidence I shared with him supporting the incorrect date of birth...


https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/13730776/william-wayne-whaley


Published June 26, 1908, refers to "ten pound boy" arriving at the home of O.W. Whaley on the prior Friday evening, AKA, June 19, 1908. The article image is now in the image gallery of the Whaley grave page.



You are really going on and on about Whaley's credibility based over a discrepancy as to his date of birth?  Suggesting his testimony about giving Oswald a ride should be discounted because he got his year of birth wrong?  Maybe it's difficult to imagine for an information hoarder but in the early 20th century it is not inconceivable for someone not to know their exact birth year.  They certainly didn't have access to the Internet.  Records were lost.  Memories were subject to error.  And it didn't really matter that much to anyone without a compulsion disorder.

Offline Tom Scully

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You are really going on and on about Whaley's credibility based over a discrepancy as to his date of birth?  Suggesting his testimony about giving Oswald a ride should be discounted because he got his year of birth wrong?  Maybe it's difficult to imagine for an information hoarder but in the early 20th century it is not inconceivable for someone not to know their exact birth year.  They certainly didn't have access to the Internet.  Records were lost.  Memories were subject to error.  And it didn't really matter that much to anyone without a compulsion disorder.

An "information hoarder"? Whaley himself and the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 U.S. Census records and these examples provided by Whaley himself, as well as his family's bible were remarkably consistent supporting what is inarguably Whaley's true birth year, 1940. Something happened after 1940, and history has a right to know, or at least reflect a change from 1908 to 1905 that took place.

His mom outlived him by eighteen months. She and the Whaley family bible were available, vs the
post 1940 process of creating a new birth year.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/53993969/lona-haynes-whaley

Published 1935 LINK, Phillips Family History, pg. 127


IOW, there was no documentation to support such a change, but Whaley's SS record, death certificate, and presumably the Texas driver's license he was carrying when he was suddenly killed all reflect the revised birth year.

It is important because his testimony, as was that of Earline Roberts and Mary Bledsoe, was uncorroborated.

Whaley's parents married in 1907. His mother was 19 in 1908. One CT zealot reacted to these facts years ago by making up a scenario in which Whaley "switched" to 1908 to shield his family from embarrassment over his actual "out of wedlock" 1905 birth, when his conception would have to have been when his mother was just 15 years old.

But that wasn't what happened, Whaley was born in 1908 at least until 1940, them switched to 1905.
That requires some effort since a consistent record supporting 1908 already existed and no evidence supporting 1905.

1908 to 1931 = 23 years....



« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 03:59:53 PM by Tom Scully »

 

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