The lapel flip -- what did i miss?

[Royell Storing]

  Again, the Knott Lab Laser testing recently concluded that the SBT was IMPOSSIBLE. ALL of this discussion is Now Immaterial. FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. No SBT = Multiple Shooters = Conspiracy CASE CLOSED !!!

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

  Again, the Knott Lab Laser testing recently concluded that the SBT was IMPOSSIBLE. ALL of this discussion is Now Immaterial. FOLLOW THE SCIENCE. No SBT = Multiple Shooters = Conspiracy CASE CLOSED !!!

Nope. Your BS meter is definitely sick. I suggest the carnivore diet.
The Knott Lab put a lot of work into modelling the location of jfk & of Connally, but in the end stuffed it all up.
Blind Freddie can see that they have JFK leaning back in his seat.
If they had him leaning forward just a little, as per all of the pix & footages, then their SBT would work, as per other analysts.
The shot happens at Z218, ie while jfk is behind the large Stemmons sign, ie halfway along the sign.

Allso, Lattimer showed that the bulging jacket & the lapel flip-eversion cannot happen unless the slug has firstly passed throo JFK & is tumbling while passing throo Connally.
FOLLOW THE SCIENCE = SBT.

[Royell Storing]

Nope. Your BS meter is definitely sick. I suggest the carnivore diet.
The Knott Lab put a lot of work into modelling the location of jfk & of Connally, but in the end stuffed it all up.
Blind Freddie can see that they have JFK leaning back in his seat.
If they had him leaning forward just a little, as per all of the pix & footages, then their SBT would work, as per other analysts.
The shot happens at Z218, ie while jfk is behind the large Stemmons sign, ie halfway along the sign.

Allso, Lattimer showed that the bulging jacket & the lapel flip-eversion cannot happen unless the slug has firstly passed throo JFK & is tumbling while passing throo Connally.
FOLLOW THE SCIENCE = SBT.

    I'll stick with the KNOTT LAB SCIENCE, vs your laughable "Magic 8 Ball" conjecture. SBT = DOA

[John Mytton]

    I'll stick with the KNOTT LAB SCIENCE, vs your laughable "Magic 8 Ball" conjecture. SBT = DOA

Sorry to interrupt this verbal diarrhoea Royell, the Warren Commission never relied on the SBF. Oops

There is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. However, Governor Connally’s testimony and certain other factors have given rise to some difference of opinion as to this probability, but there is no question in the mind of any member of the Commission that all the shots which caused the President’s and Governor Connally’s wounds were fired from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository

JohnM

[Michael T. Griffith]

The lapel flip is a red herring created by Gerald Posner. It is a meaningless event, if not a bogus one. David Wimp makes a strong case that the lapel flip is an optical illusion caused by reflected light: http://joliraja.com/LapelFlip/LapelFlapTD.htm.

If we assume the lapel flip is real, we should first and foremost recognize that it is nowhere near Connally's exit wound. The hole in Connally's jacket is nearly 1 foot from the lapel flip.

The lapel flip occurs in just 1/18th/second. Really? Since when can lapels flip up and down with such amazing speed?

If Connally's lapel ever did flip up and down, it would have done so because of the strong breeze that was intermittently gusting in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. But, again, how can a lapel flip up and down with such incredible speed? And even if it somehow managed to do so, the flip occurs nearly 12 inches from Connally's exit wound.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

The lapel flip is a red herring created by Gerald Posner. It is a meaningless event, if not a bogus one. David Wimp makes a strong case that the lapel flip is an optical illusion caused by reflected light: http://joliraja.com/LapelFlip/LapelFlapTD.htm.

If we assume the lapel flip is real, we should first and foremost recognize that it is nowhere near Connally's exit wound. The hole in Connally's jacket is nearly 1 foot from the lapel flip.

The lapel flip occurs in just 1/18th/second. Really? Since when can lapels flip up and down with such amazing speed?

If Connally's lapel ever did flip up and down, it would have done so because of the strong breeze that was intermittently gusting in Dealey Plaza during the shooting. But, again, how can a lapel flip up and down with such incredible speed? And even if it somehow managed to do so, the flip occurs nearly 12 inches from Connally's exit wound.

I found a copy of Lattimer's 1994 report re tests re Connally's lapel bulge flap flip at Z224.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/L%20Disk/Lattimer%20John%20Dr/Item%2006.pdf
Lattimer's tests show that the flip goes from say 20% at his Frame-06 to say 90% at Frame-07.
His frames are 30 fps.  The Zapruder frames are 18.3 fps.
I said that reactions show that Oswald's shot-2 was at i reckoned Z218.  However, the Zapruder footage shows that the lapel flip happened (ie attained 100% flip or nearly) between Z223 & Z224.
Therefore i need to change my estimate for Oswald's shot-2 being at Z218, it was at Z219, or a fraction later than Z219.
At Z219 & Z220 Connally was hidden by the road signage – hence the Zapruder footage missed showing the cloud of debris that caused the bulge & the flip.

Lattimer said that his tests confirmed that the shot was at Z224.
NNOOOOOOOOO.
His sequence clearly shows that his lapel flip happened at his Frame-07 (ie just before Frame-07), not at his Frame-00.
His first photo is Frame-minus-01 if u like – it merely shows his "Connally" test dummy etc before the shot.
His first frame of his shot sequence is what i call Frame-00 – it shows that the shot & the debris cloud have already happened.  What i call Frame-07 is the 8th frame of his shot sequence.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/192566201@N05/52543820000/in/dateposted-public/

https://i.postimg.cc/hvCw3MrK/latimer-4-Copy-2.jpg

Here are my latest estimates (done today) off Lattimer's 18 frames (actually 18 photos)(it was not a film)(camera took 30 pix/sec)(Lattimer's test dunn in 1994).
Its difficult to see what is what in Lattimer's 1994 frames (pix) – its partly guesswork.
The flap on the jacket on the 1994 dummy was much longer than the 1963 jacket, so i have divided the 1994 flap into the lower flap & the upper flap.
In the 1963 Zapruder frames the 1963 flap is in effect the upper flap in the 1994 frames.
I assumed that the 1963 slug hit Connally at Z220.0.  This accords with the max flip at Lattimer 07 (1994) happening at the same time as the flip in Z224 (1963).
We don’t see any debris cloud in the 1963 Zapruder frames – the exit outshoot on the 1963 jacket is hidden below the level of the 1963 limo door.
Frame … Time s … Bulge % … Lower/Upper [Flap Flip %] … Debris Cloud % … Zapruder Frame … Connally 1963 Flap.
…. 00 …. 0.0000 …. 000 ……….. 010 …. 000 ……………………………….. 075 ……………………. Z220.0 ….…. hidden by sign..
…. 01 …. 0.0333 …. 040 ………...010 …. 000 ……………………………….. 100 …………………... Z220.6 …….. hidden by sign..
…. 02 …. 0.0667 …. 070 ……….. 060 …. 010 ………………………………. 050 ……………………. Z221.2 … half hidden by sign..
…. 03 …. 0.1000 …. 100 ……….. 100 …. 010 ………………………………. 040 ……………………. Z221.8 … half hidden by sign..
…. 04 …. 0.1333 …. 100 …….... 100 …. 010 ………………………………. 030 ……………………. Z222.4 …….….... no flip ..
…. 05 …. 0.1667 …. 090 …….…. 100 …. 020 ……………………………... 010 ……………………. Z223.0 …….….... no flip ..
…. 06 …. 0.2000 …. 080 …….... 100 …. 050 ………………………………. 005 …………………….. Z223.7 …….….... no flip ..
…. 07 …. 0.2333 …. 070 ……….. 100 …. 100 …………………….………. 000 …………………….. Z224.3 …….. flipped ..
…. 08 …. 0.2667 …. 060 ……….. 100 …. 100 ………………………….…. 000 …………………….. Z224.9 …….. flipped ..
…. 09 …. 0.3000 …. 050 ……... 100 …. 100 …………………………….. 000 ……………….….…. Z225.4 …….. flipped ..
…. 10 …. 0.3333 …. 040 ……... 100 …. 080 …………………………….. 000 ……………….……. Z225.9 …….. flipped ..
…. 11 …. 0.3667 …. 030 ………. 100 …. 050 …………………………….. 000 ……………….…... Z226.8 …….. flipped ..
…. 12 …. 0.4000 …. 020 ………. 100 …. 030 ……………………………. 000 ……….…………... Z227.3 ……...….. blurred frame ..
…. 13 …. 0.4333 …. 020 ……... 080 …. 020 ……………………………... 000 ……….………….. Z227.9 ……...….. blurred frame..
…. 14 …. 0.4667 …. 010 ……... 050 …. 010 ……………………………... 000 …………….……. Z228.4 …….. hidden ..
…. 15 …. 0.5000 …. 010 ……... 030 …. 005 …………………….……….. 000 …………….….…. Z229.2 …….. hidden ..
…. 16 …. 0.5333 …. 000 ………. 020 …. 000 ……………….….…………. 000 …………….……. Z229.8 …….. hidden ..
…. 17 …. 0.5667 …. 000 ……... 010 …. 000 …………………..…………. 000 …………….……. Z2230.3 …….. hidden ..
…. …. …. 0.6000 …. ……. ……... …... …. …... …………………..…………. ..... …………….……. Z231.0 …….. hidden ..

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

I made a giff of Lattimer's 18 frames (1994 test).
The tie is out of there.
Lattimer's slug takes a big chunk out of the lapel (as can be seen). He didnt tell us that.
The 1994 exit outshoot is not in the correct place, it is too high & too close to center.
And, the silly 1994 lapel (the 1994 lapel is very long) & the silly 1994 jacket are unlike the (shortish) 1963 lapel & jacket, hence the 1994 tie escapes, & the 1994 lapel loozes a chunk (missing chunk is vizible in the photos).
So, koz of the (missing) chunk, Lattimer's 1994 lapel would (i think) have flipped more violently than the 1963 lapel (see lapel flip in Z224), & (i think) it would have flipped earlier than the 1963 lapel.
Which means that my estimate of Z218 for Oswald's shot-2 is looking better & better (ie rather than Lattimer's Z220).
Lattimer actually said that his test showed that the shot was at Z224, even tho as can be seen his 1994 test timings clearly tell us that the shot must have been at Z220, & (as i said) the 1994 flip would have been seen later if Lattimer's 1994 slug had missed the lapel (we know that the 1963 slug missed the lapel), which means that the shot at the supposed Z220 would in fact have been say Z219 (or even at my Z218).

I estimated that Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218, which is when JFK was hidden by the traffic sign, in fact Z218 is when JFK was halfway along the sign (ie at the midpoint of his disappearance).
My estimate of Z218 was based on the typical human reaction time that would give the JFK & Connally reactions seen in Zapruder frame Z224.
So, JFK's & Connally's 1963 reaction times were similar to the reaction time for Connally's 1963 jacket flap-flip (flap-flip happened at Z224) -- 6 Zapruder frames is 0.30 sec (Latimer said 1/3rd of a sec).



https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2862.96.html

bump

[Andrew Mason]

I made a giff of Lattimer's 18 frames (1994 test).
The tie is out of there.
Lattimer's slug takes a big chunk out of the lapel (as can be seen). He didnt tell us that.
The 1994 exit outshoot is not in the correct place, it is too high & too close to center.
And, the silly 1994 lapel (the 1994 lapel is very long) & the silly 1994 jacket are unlike the (shortish) 1963 lapel & jacket, hence the 1994 tie escapes, & the 1994 lapel loozes a chunk (missing chunk is vizible in the photos).
So, koz of the (missing) chunk, Lattimer's 1994 lapel would (i think) have flipped more violently than the 1963 lapel (see lapel flip in Z224), & (i think) it would have flipped earlier than the 1963 lapel.
Which means that my estimate of Z218 for Oswald's shot-2 is looking better & better (ie rather than Lattimer's Z220).
Lattimer actually said that his test showed that the shot was at Z224, even tho as can be seen his 1994 test timings clearly tell us that the shot must have been at Z220, & (as i said) the 1994 flip would have been seen later if Lattimer's 1994 slug had missed the lapel (we know that the 1963 slug missed the lapel), which means that the shot at the supposed Z220 would in fact have been say Z219 (or even at my Z218).

I estimated that Oswald's shot-2 was at Z218, which is when JFK was hidden by the traffic sign, in fact Z218 is when JFK was halfway along the sign (ie at the midpoint of his disappearance).
My estimate of Z218 was based on the typical human reaction time that would give the JFK & Connally reactions seen in Zapruder frame Z224.
So, JFK's & Connally's 1963 reaction times were similar to the reaction time for Connally's 1963 jacket flap-flip (flap-flip happened at Z224) -- 6 Zapruder frames is 0.30 sec (Latimer said 1/3rd of a sec).

The shot through the jacket/torso model made by Lattimer looks nothing like what is seen in any of the Zapruder frames.   There is no sign of any movement over several frames as shown in the Latimer film. In the Zfilm the complete change occurs between one frame (z223-224):


Since, as you point out, the bullet passed through the right chest pocket:

the only way to lift the lapel would be to move the whole right side of the jacket outward until the lapel flips.  But if the shot was before z222 how can we explain the fact that the jacket moves in the opposite direction from z222-223:


The theory of Lattimer was that the jacket would move because of the blast of blood and tissue that we see in Latimer's film exploding from the chest.  Not only do we not see a similar effect in the zfilm but there is no evidence of such an explosion of blood and tissue on the clothing.