Oswald: No power lunch

[Walt Cakebread]

That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty

This, if correct, is an important point.
Oswald was brought in around 2:00 pm but Johnson wasn't in police HQ until around 3:00PM, so Baker couldn't have given his affidavit until after 3:00 PM.
Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?

Where was Oswald being moved to when Baker saw him?

I believe that Lee was being returned to Captain Fritz's office from the 6:30 line up.....

[Alan Ford]

I think this is a slightly garbled memory of an encounter with Oswald.

Slightly garbled, lol

Ignoring your assassination team nonsense, the only other white male who might be on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting is Jack Dougherty

~Grin~

Let's translate: Given that we know JFK was shot by a Depository employee, only a Depository employee could have been on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting

Talk about Warren Gullible logic!

Yes Alan, the actual evidence.
In his report, Marvin Johnson states that Baker immediately identified Oswald. Get over it.
Why wasn't Oswald in Baker's affidavit? In the same report Johnson tells us he took Baker's affidavit and it was only 'later' he identified Oswald:

"Officer Baker later identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he had seen on the 4th floor of the Texas Book Depository."

This makes sense of why Baker didn't put this identification of Oswald in his affidavit. The confusion arises from this passage in Johnson's report:

"When Patrolman M. L. Baker identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the man he stopped in the Texas School Book Depository, patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, "That is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository."

This gives the distinct impression that it is at the same time as Baker is actually giving the affidavit that he identifies Oswald. This is in distinct contrast with Johnson's earlier observation that Baker had given his affidavit and it was 'later' that Baker identified Oswald. So, which is it? The fact Oswald isn't mentioned in Baker's affidavit supports the latter assertion, that Baker identified Oswald 'later'.

Nice try!

Mr. Baker. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

So, in a way you're right------------Officer Baker did indeed later say that Mr Oswald had been the man he'd confronted. He certainly didn't do so at the time he was giving his affidavit.

The interesting question here is: Did Officer Baker, upon seeing Mr Oswald being brought in, remember his face from their front entrance encounter?

I'm not aware of any law enforcement official being called into a line-up. I was under the impression this was something civilians did

There is a DPD document from shortly after Mr Oswald's death where a section listing Officer Witnesses states that Officer Baker identified Mr Oswald in a lineup (directing the reader to his affidavit)

[Dan O'meara]

Let's translate: Given that we know JFK was shot by a Depository employee, only a Depository employee could have been on the upper floors in the immediate aftermath of the shooting

Talk about Warren Gullible logic!

Assassination team??
Wake up.

Nice try!

Mr. Baker. As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

So, in a way you're right------------Officer Baker did indeed later say that Mr Oswald had been the man he'd confronted. He certainly didn't do so at the time he was giving his affidavit.

If he was giving his affidavit when Oswald was brought in what happened to Marvin Johnson?
Johnson was the man taking the affidavit but there is no mention of him being there when Oswald was brought in.
How do you explain that?

The interesting question here is: Did Officer Baker, upon seeing Mr Oswald being brought in, remember his face from their front entrance encounter?

"Interesting question" 

There is a DPD document from shortly after Mr Oswald's death where a section listing Officer Witnesses states that Officer Baker identified Mr Oswald in a lineup (directing the reader to his affidavit)

Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later
Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup.

[Alan Ford]

Both Lovelady and Shelley tell the same lie regarding how long it took Gloria Calvery to reach the TSBD - 3 minutes. This is an unmitigated lie, not a "misrememberence" or a misunderstanding. It is also a coordinated lie, with both men trying to introduce the same falsehood into the narrative. They both tell a similar, coordinated "lie of omission" in their same day affidavits, both men conveniently forgetting to mention they went down towards the railroad tracks, observed what was going on, then entered the TSBD through the west door.

Perhaps! Or perhaps their later story about going west and then in through the west door was a lie of commission

Both men give the very distinct impression that immediately after the assassination they re-enter the TSBD through the front door.
In one instance they are trying to erase that they entered through the west door, in another they are trying to put this event later than it actually happened.
My question is - what is going on around the west door.

My question is------------what is going on around the front door, which is the place where Mr Lovelady told Mr Jarman he saw an encounter involving Mr Oswald, an officer and Mr Truly?

Incorrect.
In his HSCA interview Molina states he stays on the steps "for awhile", then goes towards the grassy knoll

And does he give us any idea of how long this "awhile" lasted?

Yes, he does: "when everybody started to get up"

Sounds like aaaaaaaaaaaages!

then re-enters the TSBD through the red gates on the extension of Elm Street on the south side of the building (not the west door).

Like I said, he came into the first floor through a side door. Look at the floor plan! 

In the main working area of the first floor he encounters O V Campbell and they are talking until Forest Sorrells interupts.
It doesn't make sense that he then encounters a still-hysterical Calvery in the lobby.

Right, because everyone had, like, totally calmed down within a few minutes of the shooting lol

By the way Mr Molina said Ms Calvery was "horrified". Where does he say she was hysterical?

It makes more sense that, after telling Lovelady what has happened, Calvery makes her way into the building passing Molina who is outside the glass doors. Molina steps inside

But Mr Molina makes it clear he did not step inside the front door

and talks to Calvery and it is this brief conversation that prompts him to go towards the grassy knoll.

Cool story, Mr O'Meara! 

[Alan Ford]

Assassination team??
Wake up.

95% Warren Gullible rules out all scenarios except the lone gunman one. Whooda thunk it?!

If he was giving his affidavit when Oswald was brought in what happened to Marvin Johnson?
Johnson was the man taking the affidavit but there is no mention of him being there when Oswald was brought in.
How do you explain that?

What are you yapping on about, Mr O'Meara?

Det. Johnson's statement, which has gone into HIS taking of Officer Baker's affidavit, closes by stating that Mr Oswald was brought in while Officer Baker was "giving his affidavit": "When Baker saw Oswald he stated 'That is the man...'" Are you now suggesting that Det. Johnson was not even there to hear these words? If not, what on earth are you trying to say?

Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later
Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup.

Right----------further confirmation that your impression that an officer would not participate in a lineup is, like so many of your impressions, wrong

And------------the claim in the document that I cited (that he did identify Mr Oswald in a lineup) was clearly an attempt to gild the lily

 

[Alan Ford]

That's why I referred to the "garbled" recollection of a man unfamiliar with the TSBD, gun drawn, adrenaline pumping. In his affidavit Baker says third or fourth floor, hinting at his uncertainty

... though his certainty that it was higher than just one floor up! 

And then there's this beautiful little moment:

Mr. Belin. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. Baker. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
Mr. Belin. At some higher floor after that?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.
(Discussion off the record.)

Well played, Mr Belin!

[Dan O'meara]

... though his certainty that it was higher than just one floor up! 

And then there's this beautiful little moment:

Mr. Belin. At the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? Maybe you cannot remember, I don't know.
Mr. Baker. Evidently--now, I didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up Mr. Truly said let's take the elevator.
Mr. Belin. At some higher floor after that?
Mr. Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. All right, if we can go off the record for a moment here.
(Discussion off the record.)

Well played, Mr Belin!

I see.
This whole encounter happened in front of Dorothy Garner.
Great stuff.

[Alan Ford]

I see.
This whole encounter happened in front of Dorothy Garner.

Quite possibly. It's an awful pity (though of course no accident) that Ms Garner was not called to testify

But you'd rather not talk about the fact that Officer Baker has let slip that he has no recollection of running up several floors between his 'employee' encounter and the floor on which the lift was available? I fully understand, Mr O'Meara! 

Worth noting in passing that on the way up the building Mr Truly brought Officer Baker on to every floor except one-----------------the sixth