Oswald: No power lunch

[Bill Chapman]

I have 2 good books on my desk. Mortal Error. The Smoking Gun.
I could write a small book myself. But it would only have stuff already covered in my 290 or so postings on this forum.

This forum is full of LNers & CTers.
The sane CUers, like myself, have left.

Us CUers believe that there was a cover-up after, to hide that Hickey accidentally fired the headshot.
And me myself i have simply added that he fired a plurality of shots, an auto burst.

Oswald needed 48 sec to get to the 2nd floor, without running.
Hickey's 2nd last shot dented the chrome trim on the windshield.
The rest is easy.

Oswald whacked Tippit in cold blood while looking like himself to 11 ppl who ID'd him @ or nearby the ambush.

[John Mytton]

A serious question John - When do you believe that Oswald gets into position in the SN?

There is very strong evidence that BRW is in or around the SN until a few minutes before the arrival of the motorcade - the main part of his lunch, a half-eaten piece of chicken, is found on top of the SN by multiple officers (at least 4 I believe), before the arrival of Fritz. The testimony of Jarman and Norman indicates BRW does not come down to the 5th floor until moments before the motorcade arrives.
The testimony of Rowland has a black male actually in the SN around 12:15pm

Is there a consensus within the LN community on this point.

In an Oswald-Did-It scenario it seems logical that Rowland's 'man with the rifle' is Oswald who, at some point, confronts/interacts with BRW and gets him to leave. That BRW simply goes downstairs to carry on watching the motorcade would indicate this 'confrontation' was not at rifle point. It is only after the event that BRW realizes he knows who the assassin is and tries to distance himself as much as possible from his lunch on the 6th floor (something definitely demonstrated by his testimony)

I think the general consensus among LNers is that Oswald was in the Sniper's nest from 12 on, mainly because no employees admitted to seeing Oswald in the building after 12 and as for Williams, I believe that it's possible that Bonnie Ray was at the sniper's nest sometime during the lunch break because to me it doesn't make sense that he found his work mates at the windows directly below, so why wouldn't he check out the sniper's nest windows in search of his work mates. Williams says in his testimony that he "could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building" which sounds like he's over compensating and as I explained above seems pretty suss. And finally by Ford's non sequitur question immediately after this exchange, of asking Williams about being in trouble with the law indicates to me that they were thinking along the same line. And it also explains the somewhat conflicting recollections of Williams, Jarman and Norman in the following weeks.

Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.

JohnM

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Oswald whacked Tippit in cold blood while looking like himself to 11 ppl who ID'd him @ or nearby the ambush.

Oswald's shot-2 (the magic bullet) some say would have killed JFK within days.
But he didnt fire his remaining bullet -- why not?
And i have explained on this forum that Oswald decided (not to fire a shot-3) immediately after he had fired his shot-2.
But anyhow he then saw Hickey shoot JFK at Z313 (ie at about when he would have fired his shot-3) -- hence he knew that he was a patsy.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

If you want to be gullible...  go ahead. Ignorance is bliss, but you're wrong nevertheless.
Here's a hint; in the tv footage (I think) you refer to, he reaches the 4th floor at 35 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles needed less than 20 seconds to get to the stairs (on the 4th floor) after the last shot. Do the math.
Btw, Dorothy Garner said that she saw Officer Baker and Mr. Truly come up after the girls went down. If Oswald (or whoever it was) had come down before the women, Baker and Truly would have had to meet the women on the stairs after their lunchroom encounter. Guess what.... they didn't!

Nice story. Too bad there is not a shred of evidence for it.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Pure speculation and also wrong. If Oswald came down the stairs it would have been directly after Adams and Styles and not before them. Study the timeline and you'll find it impossible for him to have been in front of them.

If you want to be gullible...  go ahead. Ignorance is bliss, but you're wrong nevertheless.
Here's a hint; in the tv footage (I think) you refer to, he reaches the 4th floor at 35 seconds after the shots. Adams and Styles needed less than 20 seconds to get to the stairs (on the 4th floor) after the last shot. Do the math.
Btw, Dorothy Garner said that she saw Officer Baker and Mr. Truly come up after the girls went down. If Oswald (or whoever it was) had come down before the women, Baker and Truly would have had to meet the women on the stairs after their lunchroom encounter. Guess what.... they didn't!

[my reply back then][ No, Adams & Styles went from the window to their lift, then they went to the stairs. They were 10 sec or more behind Oswald. And they couldnt see Oswald walking around on their 4th floor from one leg of the stairs to the other leg koz of the stacks of books etc.
Adams & Styles exited the rear door from the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered the 1st floor.]

Ok, the Adams & Styles & Garner timing, versus the Oswald timing, for getting to the 4th floor rear stairway, is a major lynchpin of the JFK accidental homicide. So, lets have a closer look.
Adams & Styles see/hear the kerfuffle from their office 4th floor window.
They delay a few seconds then take off to have a better look.
They firstly go to their lift, at the east end of the 4th floor.
They spend a few seconds at the lift, then decide to enter the storeroom area & go to the rear stairs.
I always reckoned that they entered the storeroom area by using the doorway near the lift, in which case they would then best walk north along the eastern wall, ie just like Oswald probly did 2 floors above.
But, i am happy to accept that Adams & Styles didn’t use that there door, i am happy to accept that they retraced their steps back into & throo their office, past Garner, & then entered the storeroom throo their office door, in which case they would probly then have walked west towards the western wall, then walked north to the stairs.
Whether they used the door near the lift, or the door from their office duznt make much difference. The critical thing is that Oswald was in the 4th floor storeroom at the same time as Adams & Styles were in the 4th floor storeroom. The critical aspect of this is that they could have seen each other, but didn’t.
Oswald got down to the 4th floor in say 35 sec, & was at least say 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. He had to walk around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about say 10 paces.
Adams & Styles had the chance to see Oswald when they caught their first glimpse of the stairs. Depending on which door they had used, their first glimpse would have been when looking west along the northern aisle of stacked boxes, or when looking north along the western aisle of boxes.
Looking north along the western aisle of boxes would have taken longer. It would have been a few seconds shorter/quicker for them to enter the storeroom via the door near the lift. But if Garner followed them to the stairs then it makes sense that they had used their office door. Garner is less likely to have "followed them" if they had used the door near the lift. Unless of course they had used the door near the lift & had then turned & walked west past their office door, in which case Garner could then have "followed them".  But that is unlikely. The office door would have been shut. Garner would not have seen them. But praps Garner heard them klomping west past the door, & decided to follow. Or, it was a fluke, Garner coincidentally used the office door & found that Adams & Styles were ahead, & probly not even aware that Garner was following. Or, Adams & Styles used the door near the lift & then went north & then west, while Garner used the office door & went west then north, & Garner saw Adams & Styles enter the stairs whilst Garner was walking north, in which case Garner didn’t really follow them in a true sense.
In the end Garner didn’t use the stairs, she stopped at i think the last window near the stairs, & she watched the commotion in the railway carpark, which i think was her intention all along, koz the windows on the western wall in her office were blocked.
A while later Garner saw Truly & Baker rush around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about 5 paces away from her, but they didn’t notice her, or they forgot that they saw her.
Anyhow, the critical thing is that Adams & Styles didn’t see Oswald, he was more than 10 sec ahead of them, mainly koz they had lost time due to their detour to their lift.

[Martin Weidmann]

[my reply back then][ No, Adams & Styles went from the window to their lift, then they went to the stairs. They were 10 sec or more behind Oswald. And they couldnt see Oswald walking around on their 4th floor from one leg of the stairs to the other leg koz of the stacks of books etc.
Adams & Styles exited the rear door from the 1st floor a few seconds after Truly & Baker entered the 1st floor.]

Ok, the Adams & Styles & Garner timing, versus the Oswald timing, for getting to the 4th floor rear stairway, is a major lynchpin of the JFK accidental homicide. So, lets have a closer look.
Adams & Styles see/hear the kerfuffle from their office 4th floor window.
They delay a few seconds then take off to have a better look.
They firstly go to their lift, at the east end of the 4th floor.
They spend a few seconds at the lift, then decide to enter the storeroom area & go to the rear stairs.
I always reckoned that they entered the storeroom area by using the doorway near the lift, in which case they would then best walk north along the eastern wall, ie just like Oswald probly did 2 floors above.

You reckoned wrong;

Vicky Adams told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she and Styles went down the stairs immediately after the last shot. She said something similar to Jim Leavelle on 02/07/64 and again to the FBI on 03/23/64 and she repeated it again in her testimony;

Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs

But, i am happy to accept that Adams & Styles didn’t use that there door, i am happy to accept that they retraced their steps back into & throo their office, past Garner, & then entered the storeroom throo their office door, in which case they would proble then have walked west towards the western wall, then walked north to the stairs.
Whether they used the door near the lift, or the door from their office duznt make much difference. The critical thing is that Oswald was in the 4th floor storeroom at the same time as Adams & Styles were in the 4th floor storeroom. The critical aspect of this is that they could have seen each other, but didn’t.

Wrong again. Adams, Styles and Garner left the room through the connecting door to the storage space and crossed the floor in a straight line, directly to the stairs. The killer had to walk nearly the entire length of the building before he could turn left.

Oswald got down to the 4th floor in say 35 sec, & was at least say 10 sec ahead of Adams & Styles. He had to walk around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about say 10 paces.

Couldn't have happened, because that would mean that Oswald would have entered the 2nd floor lunchroom before Adams and Styles reached the second floor, which in turn would mean that they absolutely would have bumped into Baker and Truly on their way down to the first floor.
 
Now, if you want to argue that Baker and Truly did not reach the stairs on the first floor until Adams and Styles had left the stairs and the building (which they must have done for Baker and Truly not to see them), you even increase the time that Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom, prior to his encounter with Baker. That however, does not fit with the fact that Baker's attention was drawn to the lunchroom because he saw a man walking away (into the lunchroom) through a small window in the door.

Adams & Styles had the chance to see Oswald when they caught their first glimpse of the stairs. Depending on which door they had used, their first glimpse would have been when looking west along the northern aisle of stacked boxes, or when looking north along the western aisle of boxes.
Looking north along the western aisle of boxes would have taken longer. It would have been a few seconds shorter/quicker for them to enter the storeroom via the door near the lift. But if Garner followed them to the stairs then it makes sense that they had used their office door. Garner is less likely to have "followed them" if they had used the door near the lift. Unless of course they had used the door near the lift & had then turned & walked west past their office door, in which case Garner could then have "followed them".  But that is unlikely. The office door would have been shut. Garner would not have seen them. But praps Garner heard them klomping west past the door, & decided to follow. Or, it was a fluke, Garner coincidentally used the office door & found that Adams & Styles were ahead, & probly not even aware that Garner was following. Or, Adams & Styles used the door near the lift & then went north & then west, while Garner used the office door & went west then north, & Garner saw Adams & Styles enter the stairs whilst Garner was walking north, in which case Garner didn’t really follow them in a true sense.
In the end Garner didn’t use the stairs, she stopped at i think the last window near the stairs, & she watched the commotion in the railway carpark, which i think was her intention all along, koz the windows on the western wall in her office were blocked.

So much speculation and not a shred of evidence to support it.

A while later Garner saw Truly & Baker rush around from one leg of the stairs to the other leg, about 5 paces away from her, but they didn’t notice her, or they forgot that they saw her.
Anyhow, the critical thing is that Adams & Styles didn’t see Oswald, he was more than 10 sec ahead of them, mainly koz they had lost time due to their detour to their lift.

Adams says nothing in her testimony about a detour to the lift.

Your error is the fact that you only concentrate on what you perceive to be Oswald's timeline and build those of the others around it. What you need to do is construct a timeline which incorporates the starting times and movements (in relation to eachother) of (1) the 6th floor shooter, (2) Adams & Styles and (3) Baker and Truly. You will soon find out that what you are proposing is wrong

Perhaps this discussion will help you see the light;

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2585.msg93118.html#msg93118

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

You reckoned wrong;

Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs

Wrong again. Adams, Styles and Garner left the room through the connecting door to the storage space and crossed the floor in a straight line, directly to the stairs. The killer had to walk nearly the entire length of the building before he could turn left. Try to find the video of the FBI reconstruction, which actually took place at the TSBD, rather than using some vague time trial in another building.

Couldn't have happened, because that would mean that Oswald would have entered the 2nd floor lunchroom before Adams and Styles reached the second floor, which in turn would mean that they absolutely would have bumped into Baker and Truly on their way down to the first floor.
 
Now, if you want to argue that Baker and Truly did not reach the stairs on the first floor until Adams and Styles had left the stairs and the building (which they must have done for Baker and Truly not to see them), you even increase the time that Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom, prior to his encounter with Baker. That however, does not fit with the fact that Baker's attention was drawn to the lunchroom because he saw a man walking away (into the lunchroom) through a small window in the door.

So much speculation and not a shred of evidence to support it.

Adams says nothing in her testimony about a detour to the lift.

Your error is the fact that you only concentrate on what you perceive to be Oswald's timeline and build those of the others around it. What you need to do is construct a timeline which incorporates the starting times and movements (in relation to eachother) of (1) the 6th floor shooter, (2) Adams & Styles and (3) Baker and Truly. You will soon find out that what you are proposing is wrong

Styles said that they firstly went to the lift for a while.
Styles said that they didnt leave the window immediately, she said they stayed at the window for a while.
Hence there is little value in any talk about their exact route.
Whichever route they took, Oswald was more than 10 sec ahead.
And the timing of Oswald getting to the 2nd floor, & Adams & Styles getting to the 2nd floor, & Truly & Baker getting to the 2nd floor, works perfectly.
I will re-post my detailed analysis in a minute or two.

[John Mytton]

JohnM

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Oswald gets to the 2nd floor after 48 sec (Sixth Floor Museum measurements)(see their youtube footage).
Oswald stops.  What to do next? 
Should he continue down to the first floor? 
Should he go to the first floor via the front stairs? 
Should he lay low in the lunch room? 
His jacket is in the Domino Room.
Uh Oh -- He hears Adams & Styles klomping down the stairs above him in a real hurry on a mission.
Best to duck over & hide near the coke machine in the lunch room & hope that whoever it is goes clean past.
They pass. He comes back out. What to do next?
He can't decide.  He will be less conspicuous if he takes the front stairs, but he would then have to walk back into & throo the storage area to get his jacket in the Domino Room.
He decides to continue down the back stairs.
He makes a start but then Truly hollers up the elevator shaft, so he goes back up.
Then he hears Baker & Truly galloping up the stairs, & he retreats to the coke machine a second time.
He walks slow & cool. 
He would have been better off diving into the lunchroom in a hurry, & laying low, koz he already knows that there is no-one in there, but he knows that if seen rushing (by Truly & Co) it will be a sure sign that he is guilty of something.
He nearly makes it, another couple of slow steps & he will be out of sight.
But damn, Baker spots a bit of him throo the glass of the door & says to come back.
Truly says that Oswald works here, & Baker & Truly gallop off.
Oswald gets a coke to look less guilty & more cool if confronted again.  And assassinations go better with coke.
The back stairs are now dangerous.  He heads for the front stairs, either forgetting about his jacket or deciding that his jacket is a dead duck.
But just in case more dumb cops are entering along the corridor he goes via the office.
Damn, he meets Jeraldean Reid as she returns to her desk.  She says something as they pass & he mumbles something back.  Its not a good look.  He has no business in the office, unless wanting change for the coke machine. Its not even a short cut to the stairs. Damn.  Anyhow no big deal.
He goes down the front stairs & mixes with the growing throng in the lobby near the front door without raising any suspicion.
Someone asks him about a phone.
Ok, things aint so bad, praps he can take a chance & get his jacket from the Domino Room anyhow.
Hmmm – he can get his jacket by going out the front door & down the steps & around & entering via the Houston dock (like he does each morning), & walking 13 paces to the jacket. 
Getting caught walking in shouldn’t result in getting bitten by a cop.
So, off he goes, but he gets a little ways up Houston & he sees Officer Barnett on sentry duty at the dock, & Barnett looks vicious.
So, a quick U-turn & back down Houston.  Buell Frazier sees him walking south along Houston.
No, the jacket is a dead duck.  He decides to get out of there asap, he crosses Houston & then crosses Elm.
Tippit is waiting.