Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'


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Offline Steve Barber

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2021, 04:22:04 PM »
  This is a blowup the photograph indicating where Burris said he found the skull fragments.[/img]

  This is the back of the photograph with inscription detailing where Burris found the skull fragment. 



    This is the full photograph showing the skull fragment location
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 04:33:52 PM by Steve Barber »

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2021, 04:22:04 PM »


Offline Markus Ell

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2021, 04:48:40 PM »
Hello Chad Labarre,

sorry, but I cannot imagine the Babushka Lady as a possible shooter. Even if she had used a pistol disguised as a camera (if there was anything like it at the time) with a silencer. Silencers can reduce the volume of the shot (as far as I know, often by around 30 to 35 decibels, but I'm not an expert here), but in my opinion the shot would still be clearly audible. Commercially available pistols have a volume of around 90 or more decibels, with a peel damper still around 60 decibels.

The danger of being discovered quickly would have been very high, as Charles Brehm and his son should have noticed that the shot was fired directly behind them.

Perhaps even the witnesses Moorman, Hill and possibly Foster could have identified the location of the shooting.
I also believe that the police escort that followed the President on a motorcycle made the Babushka Lady's shot even more difficult.

Another problem arises from the fact that the second Babushka Lady should have been pretty close to the crime scene, which in my opinion does not match what can be seen on the Bronson film or the Bronson photo (he took shortly before the fatal shot).



from Bronson Film:



and from photo:



Unfortunately, I can't see anyone in these photos who looks like the Babushka Lady. Where should the alleged second Babushka Lady suddenly come from?

In Zapruder, Hughes, Bell and the other films, too, there is no indication that another person dressed almost exactly like the Babushka Lady.

The coat on the Allen photos matches the coat on Bell and Muchmore very well. Thanks to a photo by Skaggs, we know that the color of the Allen Babushka Lady's headscarf (the Babushka Lady wears exactly the same headscarf here) is roughly the same color as, for example, Muchmore, Bronson, Nix and Bell (there are slight color deviations of course due to different brightness and contrast settings as well as manufacturer-specific color formats available). The bag also matches very well.

Therefore, one can only draw the conclusion that there was actually only one Babushka Lady.

Coats and headscarves were probably not uncommon items of clothing at that time, so that some women wore them on that day. Unfortunately, this makes it easier to ascribe the Babushka Lady identity to a person even though they are not.

Many greetings

Offline Chad Labarre

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2021, 07:48:53 PM »
Markus-

You bring up several valid objections against my argument, and I'd like to respond to them:

1)  You state that Brehm, Hill and Moorman would have heard the shots fired from BL_1.  I don't disagree with that statement.  Here's the thing: I am saying that BL_1 was an assassin - if that's true, the conspiracy plan MUST have included some support and/or cover for BL_1.  It would have been very shortsighted to simply place a gunman out in the open all by himself with no further consideration.  With that being said, I think that Brehm, Hill and Moorman were assets for the conspirators.  Consider the following:

a)  Look at the Z-film.  Brehm is almost perfectly placed to mask BL_1 from view - from the perspective of the Z-camera.  He is also blocking BL_1 from being seen by anybody in the street.  Personally, I am inclined to think that the SS agents behind JFK were all in on the plot.  But if it was the case one or more of them were not, then Brehm would have shielded BL_1 from being seen by them.

Furthermore, watch the Z-film and note that Brehm and his son were clapping their hands.  This would serve as sonic camouflage to cover the sounds of the (silenced) firearm from BL_1.

Also, people (such as William Newman) have reported gunshot sounds coming from the grassy knoll.  I think the conspirators placed people there to fire blanks, which would have distracted and confused bystanders from focusing on BL_1 as he fires his weapon.

b)  Keep in mind that dozens of witnesses have reported that JFK's limo came to a stop.  Where did it come to a stop?  According to statements by William Newman, who was on the north side of Elm Street directly across from Jean Hill, the limo came to a stop right in front of him, and that's where the fatal head shot occurred.  Here is a statement from longtime assassination researcher David Lifton (from 'The Great Zapruder Film Hoax'. pg 424):

In November, 1971, I went to Dallas for the first time and had tape recorded
interviews [with] Bill and Gayle Newman, who were directly to Kennedy's
right when he was struck in the head, and who insisted that the car came
to a momentary halt, right in front of them.


In other words, the fatal head shot occurred at a more easterly location on Elm Street than that shown in the Z-film (Z-film was edited to mask the limo stop - see 'The Great Zapruder Film Hoax').  When you shift the foreground (JFK's limo and the DPD motorcycle officers) of the head shot frame (z313) further east, it is apparent that BL_1 would have had a clear line of sight to the back of JFK's head.

c)  Jean Hill, dressed up to look like a giant stop sign, would have served as a marker, obvious to the limo driver and BL_1.  The limo driver brings JFK to a stop right along side Jean Hill, where BL_1 will be waiting to administer the kill shot.

d)  Mary Moorman's role was to have provided photographic 'evidence' to support the Z-film.  I go into much greater detail on this point in an ebook I wrote on the subject - a free pdf download at aninspiredbitoftreason.wordpress.com/.

2)  You mention that BL_2 must have been close by somewhere - but you are unable to locate her in any photos.  I can't locate her either, and believe me, I've tried.  How about this scenario:  BL_2 was in a vehicle some distance behind the JFK motorcade.  Very soon after the assassination, the vehicle pulls up to the curb on Elm Street and lets BL_2 out, and BL_1 simply starts walking away (as I demonstrate with my analysis of the Bond 8 and 9 photos earlier in this post).  Such a transfer would have taken 15-20 seconds, tops.  And, in the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, who would have noticed?

3)  You call into question my fundamental premise that there were two different BL's:  one present during JFK's murder, and a replacement soon afterwards.  We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.  Earlier in this post I put forth all the evidence I was able to muster in support of my argument.  I have nothing more to add on this point.  If I did, I would post it here.  I just want say that I am adamant that BL_1 and BL_2 were two different people.  If I didn't really believe that, I wouldn't be writing these words...

At any rate, I appreciate your thoughtful objections.  It is only through back and forth discussions such as this that we can come to some understanding of what happened in Dealey Plaza that day.  Clearly we can't rely on 'our' institutions (media, law enforcement, judicial, etc.) to tell us the truth - it's up to us to dig for it...

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2021, 07:48:53 PM »


Offline Markus Ell

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2021, 01:28:22 PM »
Hello Chad Labarre,

I don't know Charles Brehm, Jean Hill, or Marie Muchmore well enough to be able to judge whether they might have been willing to help in this horrific act.

In the case of Charles Brehm, this would be particularly severe, as he expected his 5-year-old son Joey to witness the cruel act with his own eyes. I definitely do not rate Charles Brehm as radical, especially since he, like Hill and Moorman, looked very upset and traumatized after the crime. With the best will in the world, I can't imagine it was acted (although my impressions don't really invalidate your scenario either).  It should also be borne in mind that the more people are involved in an act of this magnitude, the risk of non-secrecy increases immensely.

On their point that the second babushka was in a car and exchanged the first BL shortly after the assassination:

If I'm not mistaken (I often have problems assigning a point in time to the pictures), the fourth Wilma Bond photo should roughly correspond to the point in time when a policeman (I think Hargis) in the Bell film runs up to Babushka Lady ("BL 1").

Bond 4 also features one or even two people with cameras filming the Newman family (Doris Mumford lying next to them, I believe), which I suspect is Dave Wiegman and maybe Thomas Atkins (as I said I'm very unsure about that, on Bell they are not visible, maybe outof view area ?). But that would mean that Camera Car 1 must have already passed the babushka lady.

We should see "BL 2" on the Nix-Film, because the bag strap can be seen quite well here.
But that should also mean that "BL 2" can also be seen in the couch film (camera car 3). This results in a very short period of time because, according to the Sixth Floor Museum Dallas, the scene with the Babushka Lady in the Nix film was probably recorded a little more than 30 seconds after the fatal shot. On couch you see "BL 2" a little earlier. Couldn't see a car on the couch, which would have allowed the "BL 2" to get out beforehand, which makes the time span quite short. So far, I have not been able to find a car on various photos that would have made this possible for the BL 2 (possible photos here might be of Phil Willis or Jim Towner).

I also don't assume that a car would have squeezed in during the motorcade. Therefore I am still convinced that there was only one Babushka Lady.

Some are of the opinion that the Babushka Lady was very much involved in the assassination, not as a shooter, but as a kind of signal generator, since a light source appears on the Zapruder film (interestingly only in the qualitatively improved versions). I have no idea whether this is really true.

My arguments are certainly not the most well-founded either, but they reflect my previous impressions and views.

Many greetings


« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 02:11:16 PM by Markus Ell »

Offline Chad Labarre

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2021, 10:34:05 PM »
Markus-
You bring up many good points.  My reply as far as the lack of photographic evidence is this:  I think we can all agree that the photographic record of the JFK assassination has been meddled with, and not just the Z-film.  If my BL theory is correct, then one of the major things the conspirators would be on the lookout for would be any and all photographic images which would indicate that there were TWO Babushka Ladies, and if found, these images would have to be edited or destroyed.  Take, for example, my analysis of the Bell film, where there appeared to be a break in the footage between the last time we see BL_1 and the first time we see BL_2.  Also, look at my images of the two Bond photos.  The green line in Bond9 is the extreme right hand edge of Bond8.  BL_1 is right at that line, which means that Bond8 may have actually captured BOTH BL_1 and BL_2 - and the conspirators had the area containing BL_1 cropped out.

I tend to look at it this way:  There may not be any obvious photographic evidence proving a BL switch occurred, but the subtle yet detectable physical differences between BL_1 and BL_2 dictate that at some time soon after the assassination, a switch did in fact take place.  It all comes down to whether or not you believe that BL_1 and BL_2 were two different people - as I do.

As for Brehm, well, some people would do almost anything - for the right price.  I should say that I have no hard evidence Brehm, Hill and Moorman were in on the plot.  This assertion is based (almost) solely on my belief that BL_1 was an assassin.  Put yourself into the shoes of the conspirators:  you can't just say the your assassin:  "Hey, put on this dress, overcoat and headscarf, then go stand out in the open on the South side of Elm street and take some shots at JFK as he rides by"  That's leaving too much to chance. 

By the way, the BL is visible in 22 of the 406 Zapruder frames, yet there is not one single clear image of the BL.  Coincidence?
If BL_1 was indeed a 'man with a gun', then images of BL_1 would have needed quite a bit of editorial attention - as far as the Zapruder film is concerned...

Regards,
Chad



Offline Michael Christopher

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2021, 12:13:22 AM »
You're comparing photos where no face is seen (I understand why, don't worry about that) which seems a waste of time.

The BL fascinates me and I would love to know who she really was but yeah, this isn't a credible line of investigation, as far as I am concerned. Unless you can provide two face shots of clearly different women, then it's not even worth the time.

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Re: Two different people posing as a 'Babushka Lady'
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2021, 12:13:22 AM »


 

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