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Author Topic: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy  (Read 22212 times)

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2021, 06:44:48 AM »
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Markham's washateria clock, Mrs. Higgins' clock, and the clock at Methodist Hostpital.

How accurate was Markham's washateria clock? And when was the last time that you saw someone go to a washateria to set their watch?

If you want to push Mrs Higgins' story, please show us the video where a television announcer reads "1:06" pm off of a clock on air. The various media organizations involved kept videotape of their coverage, so you should be able to find it if it really happened that way. I will caution you that people have tried. None have returned alive, from what I've gathered.

I'm sure you're already aware of the Methodist ER nurse who told Earl Golz that the DOA discrepancy was due to the clock in the Methodist ER being off by 15 minutes. 




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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2021, 06:44:48 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2021, 12:08:50 PM »
What you are saying is that Bowley's watch must be correct be cause it fits your timeline. That line of argument says more about your ego than it does about the accuracy of Bowley's watch. Sniping aside, you're really down to arguing that Bowley's watch must be correct because it fits your timeline ...after claiming that the timeline must be correct (in part) because it fits the time supplied by Bowley's watch. That's a blatant circular argument, and as such lacks any validity.

Your backup argument is that Bowley's watch must be correct because he says he picked up his daughter "at about 12:55 pm." This line of thinking makes no sense from the get go. If nothing else, how would Bowley know what the time time was at 12:55? Probably, he looked at his watch. But if the watch was off n minutes when it read "1:10" then it was also n minutes off at "12:55."

So how accurate was Bowley's watch?

The rest of your 'corroboration' is the same tangled heap of cherry-picking and unwarranted assumptions that I've come to associate with the use of the word "corroborate."

When you actually look at the data in the transcripts and the recordings themselves, you'll find that that Bowles and Cason were correct when they said that the DPD kept the dispatcher clocks within a minute of each other. Dan and I have already demonstrated that using the simulcast and semi-simulcast traffic just after the shooting demonstrate that the DPD clocks were within a minute of each other, just as Bowles said. We've also pointed out that the McIntyre photo, Greer's testimony, Sorrel's testimony, and Power's affidavit agree that the assassination happened at 12:30, which also agrees with the traffic on channel two. The data  is there. You can't blow off the data because you think Bowles said something years after the fact. At some point, you have to reconcile what's in the DPD recordings with the rest of your timeline, if you want to be taken seriously. And you you need to account for the Dudley Hughes data as well.


What you are saying is that Bowley's watch must be correct be cause it fits your timeline. That line of argument says more about your ego than it does about the accuracy of Bowley's watch.

No, that's not what I am saying at all. It's a strawman you have made up. You've clearly not read the time line because if you had you would have understood there was a sequence of events in which each individual has a particular place irrespective of a clock being right or wrong. However, when you place an individual like Bowley in his correct place in the sequence of events and it turns out his watch must have been (nearly) correct that's no more than a bonus.

Markham came first, because she arrived just prior to the shooting,
Benavides is second as he got out of the car and tried to get on to the police radio within roughly 40 seconds after the shooting
Bowley is next as he took the radio from Benavides and made his 46 seconds call
And Callaway came after that. We know that Callaway was less than a block away (which would take about 2 minutes to walk)

He said he heard the shots and then saw a man with a revolver coming towards him. After his encounter with that man, he ran towards 10th street. As it would not have taken him more than 3 minutes, we can conclude that Bowley must have arrived at the scene within approx 90 to 120 seconds after the shooting, in order to make his 46 seconds long radio call before Callaway got there. The ambulance driver told the HSCA investigators that it took less than four minutes between receiving the call and Tippit being declared DOA at Methodist Hospital and we know that Callaway and Bowley both helped to load Tippit into the ambulance. And, finally, officer Croy heard Bowley's call (he was in his car at Zang/Colorado) and drove to 10th street. That drive only took 2 minutes and when he arrived he saw two civilians (Callaway and Bowley) load Tippit in the car.

This sequence of events is undisputed and proven by the testimony of the witnesses themselves. When you attach the time estimates of Markham and Bowley to it, as well as DPD officers Poe and Jez (squad car 105) report which says they heard Bowley's call at around 1:10 PM you have solid corroboration of the times.

To prove my time line wrong, all you need to do is try to remove or change one part of the time line and see what happens to the rest. It can not be done.

Sniping aside, you're really down to arguing that Bowley's watch must be correct because it fits your timeline ...after claiming that the timeline must be correct (in part) because it fits the time supplied by Bowley's watch. That's a blatant circular argument, and as such lacks any validity.

No that's not the argument. That's again your strawman. You clearly haven't studied the time line or otherwise you wouldn't say something this stupid.

Your backup argument is that Bowley's watch must be correct because he says he picked up his daughter "at about 12:55 pm." This line of thinking makes no sense from the get go. If nothing else, how would Bowley know what the time time was at 12:55? Probably, he looked at his watch. But if the watch was off n minutes when it read "1:10" then it was also n minutes off at "12:55."

Another misrepresentation of what I am actually saying. When you have to use misrepresentations to dismiss something you have already lost the argument. Your mispresentation is either confirmation of the fact that you haven't understood the time line or you just don't care.

But I'll play your little game. Yes, if Bowley's watch was off a number of minutes when it read 1:10 (to fit him into the official DPD time line, it would have to be off by some 7 minutes) it was indeed also off at 12:55. But just how likely is that? Have you ever picked up a 12 year old from school? Do you really think a parent can arrive 7 minutes late at school to pick up a teenager and not hear about it? Really? 

So how accurate was Bowley's watch?

The other available evidence shows that Bowley's watch was pretty accurate. It's actually somewhat pathetic for you to concentrate solely on Bowley's watch. You clearly seem to think that's the weakest link in the entire time line. So, to show the error of your ways; forget about Bowley's watch and ignore he said he looked at it and it said 1:10. Now just look at the remainder of the time line and try to work out at roughly what time Bowley must have arrived at the scene, for DPD officers Poe and Jez (squad car 105) to hear his radio call at approximently 1:10?

Or, let me guess... Poe and Jez used a clock that was also off......  :D

The rest of your 'corroboration' is the same tangled heap of cherry-picking and unwarranted assumptions that I've come to associate with the use of the word "corroborate."

Yeah right.... OK then, I'll make you a deal. You tell me which parts are cherry picked and/or unwarranted assumptions and we'll take it from there. Go on then......

When you actually look at the data in the transcripts and the recordings themselves, you'll find that that Bowles and Cason were correct when they said that the DPD kept the dispatcher clocks within a minute of each other. Dan and I have already demonstrated that using the simulcast and semi-simulcast traffic just after the shooting demonstrate that the DPD clocks were within a minute of each other, just as Bowles said. We've also pointed out that the McIntyre photo, Greer's testimony, Sorrel's testimony, and Power's affidavit agree that the assassination happened at 12:30, which also agrees with the traffic on channel two. The data  is there. You can't blow off the data because you think Bowles said something years after the fact.

Nobody is blowing off any data because of what Bowles said. You are misrepresenting what Bowles actually told the HSCA. He did say that dispatcher clocks were normally kept within a minute of each other, but you left out that he also said it didn't always happen when radio traffic was busy, as it obviously was after Kennedy was shot. What you also left out is that Bowles said that the dispatcher's clocks did not line up with the master clock as their main purpose was to document a sequence of events rather than provide an exact time. And you also left out that Bowles said that the master clock gave "official" time which was not the same as real time.

At some point, you have to reconcile what's in the DPD recordings with the rest of your timeline, if you want to be taken seriously. And you you need to account for the Dudley Hughes data as well.

No, you need to reconcile the DPD recordings with the actual sequence of events, and when you do you will find that the DPD recordings simply do not match those events.

Here's an example. Callaway was only less than a block away from the scene. It took him no more than 3 minutes to get to 10th street. When he arrived there, Bowley was already there and had already made his 46 seconds long call. According to Bill Brown the actual DPD recording (he heard at Dale Myers home) has Benavides tapping the mic for roughly two minutes before Bowley took it over, which simply does not match with Callaway being there within 3 minutes after the shots. Even less so when you add on the 40 seconds Benavides waited in his truck until the killer was out of sight.

The WC had Tippit being shot at 1:16, which in turn would mean that (if the 40 seconds waiting and 2 minutes mic tapping for Benavides is correct) Bowley did not arrive at the scene until 1:18 or 1:19 (which would mean his watch was 8 to 9 minutes off), which is impossible as the transcripts have Bowley placing his call at 1:17 and Callaway placing his call at 1:19. It just doesn't add up.

And btw there is no such thing as Dudley Hughes data. Based on an article written by Nash in 1964, LNs have claimed that a time stamp card showed the call for an ambulance came in at 1:18. The problem with that is that no such card exists and nobody has ever been able to produce it. Secondly, and equally important, even if there was such a card, there is no guarantee that the clock used by the dispatcher of the funeral house was accurate.

Now let me bounce the ball back to you. If you want to be taken seriously you need to address the entire time line and not just parts where you think you can score. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:07:49 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2021, 01:10:58 PM »
How accurate was Markham's washateria clock? And when was the last time that you saw someone go to a washateria to set their watch?

If you want to push Mrs Higgins' story, please show us the video where a television announcer reads "1:06" pm off of a clock on air. The various media organizations involved kept videotape of their coverage, so you should be able to find it if it really happened that way. I will caution you that people have tried. None have returned alive, from what I've gathered.

I'm sure you're already aware of the Methodist ER nurse who told Earl Golz that the DOA discrepancy was due to the clock in the Methodist ER being off by 15 minutes.

I'm sure you're already aware of the Methodist ER nurse who told Earl Golz that the DOA discrepancy was due to the clock in the Methodist ER being off by 15 minutes.

What a lame argument to make. Dr. Liguori informed the Justice of the Peace that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15. DPD officer Davenport was present what Tippit was declared dead and wrote in his report the time was 1:15. He also wrote the same time on the form used to submit a bullet (taken from Tippit's body) and a uniform button to the DPD identification bureau. That's day 1 information.

But there is more, just to show how ridiculous your comment is. Let's assume for a second that Dudley Funeral home indeed receive the call for an ambulance at 1:18. Ambulance driver Clayton Butler told HSCA investigators in 1977 that it took him less than a minute to get to the scene and "from the time we received the call in our dispatch office until Officer Tippit was declared dead at Methodist Hospital was approximately four minutes" which (in this example) would mean that Tippit was declared dead at 1:22.

Or, alternatively, let's turn it around. Let's say the nurse was right and when the hospital clock said 1:15 it really was 1:30. Since we know that the ambulance only needed 4 minutes to get to the scene where Tippit was shot and then the hospital where Tippit was declared dead, it would mean, if the nurse was right, that Tippit was shot somewhere around 1:25. 

Yet here you are clinging to an absurd story that some nurse told a reporter about the clock being off by 15 minutes. It does not even compute with the WC time line for crying out loud.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 07:56:15 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2021, 01:10:58 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2021, 06:51:56 PM »
In the meantime, point out those who only saw Oswald for 'a couple of seconds'.

I don't know who saw Oswald for only a couple of seconds, but the Davis girls only saw Tippit's killer as he ran through their garden and passed their front door. They were resting with their kids when they heard the shots and had to make their way to the front door. It only took Tippit's killer no more than 30 seconds to get from the scene to the hedge he jumped over to get to Patton, so how long do you think they actually saw him as he ran by? 

Scoggings said in his testimony that he didn't pay much attention to the man talking to the police officer. When he heard the shots he tried to get away, found out there was nowhere to go and returned to his taxi. He only really saw the killer as he was coming towards him on his way towards Patton and that's the only time he saw his face. It couldn't have been more than a few seconds. And Scoggins' observations were so poor that, one day after the line up, he failed to identify Oswald to the FBI as the man he had seen.

And you will have to prove that people were misled and prejudicial based on something other than your disdain for authority and your obvious predilection for arguing for the sake of argument .

This is rich coming from the guy who always says this is not a court and he needs to prove nothing. And btw, I have no disdain for authority, but I do have disdain for cops who do not follow correct procedures and idiots who cover for them.

If they all attended the line up, maybe, but they didn't. Out of those selected to attend the line up, all identified Oswald as the man they had seen. Such a pre-selection alone should tell you something! Stop misrepresenting the facts.

The same old LN propaganda crap. When they tried to resuscitate Kennedy the blood flooded out of the head wound, yet here you are suggesting they didn't even bother to look at that wound. And btw, the embalmer Tom Robinson, who actually had to fill the cavity with rubber, confirmed the location and size of the head wound as described by the Parkland doctors.

At the next LN meeting please see if you can get a better script to work with for next time.

You just can't avoid the ad-Homs, can you? It does suit you, though. And you're the one who keeps pressing for proof. No matter; it gives me more face-time to continue to use your head as a speed-bag. Better keep ducking, Rocky. And where did I suggest that no one looked at the head or attempted to look at the head. Hell, how could anyone not? And I do know that 3-4 Parkland doctors agreed that the autopsy photos matched what they saw in the OR.

And your suggestion that I meet with other LNs is preposterous given that no one I know gives a damn about this assassination. And you might want to notice that LNers are not the ones running around slapping each other on the back at the slightest bit of (perceived or otherwise) support.

Now tell us just how long it should take any given witness to register a person's looks. Apparently not long, since in a document posted by JohnM, both sisters made positive ID's of Oswald. Regarding Scoggins, he was given 4-5 pictures to look at, and he narrowed it down to 2. One was Oswald. He said they both looked older than what he saw... but added that he's not good at recognizing ppl from pictures.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 07:34:35 PM by Bill Chapman »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2021, 07:54:19 PM »
You just can't avoid the ad-Homs, can you? It does suit you, though. And you're the one who keeps pressing for proof. No matter; it gives me more face-time to continue to use your head as a speed-bag. Better keep ducking, Rocky. And where did I suggest that no one looked at the head or attempted to look at the head. Hell, how could anyone not? And I do know that 3-4 Parkland doctors agreed that the autopsy photos matched what they saw in the OR.

And your suggestion that I meet with other LNs is preposterous given that no one I know gives a damn about this assassination. And you might want to notice that LNers are not the ones running around slapping each other on the back at the slightest bit of (perceived or otherwise) support.

Now tell us just how long it should take any given witness to register a person's looks. Apparently not long, since in a document posted by JohnM, both sisters made positive ID's of Oswald. Regarding Scoggins, he was given 4-5 pictures to look at, and he narrowed it down to 2. One was Oswald. He said they both looked older than what he saw... but added that he's not good at recognizing ppl from pictures.

You just can't avoid the ad-Homs, can you? It does suit you, though.

Said he in an ad hom kinda way.

And you're the one who keeps pressing for proof.

And you keep on not providing it or saying you don't need to provide it because it's not a court of law. You want to have your cake and eat it to.... Ain't gonna happen

And where did I suggest that no one looked at the head or attempted to look at the head. Hell, how could anyone not?

Exactly, which makes your previous argument completely bogus

And I do know that 3-4 Parkland doctors agreed that the autopsy photos matched what they saw in the OR.

Actually, no you don't know that. What you know is that some Parkland doctors were once taken into a room, where no camera or witness was allowed, and were shown photos that matched the wound they had seen. You can only believe that those photos were indeed those taken at the autopsy because there is no way you can know for sure.

And your suggestion that I meet with other LNs is preposterous given that no one I know gives a damn about this assassination.

Who said anything about a physical meeting?

And you might want to notice that LNers are not the ones running around slapping each other on the back at the slightest bit of (perceived or otherwise) support.

Really? Is this just denial or simply an outright lie? It happens all the time and mostly by posting gifs.

Now tell us just how long it should take any given witness to register a person's looks. Apparently not long, since in a document posted by JohnM, both sisters made positive ID's of Oswald.

And to you that means that they had a good enough look of this man running passed their front door. It would never ever tell you something might not be quite right with the line up, right?

Regarding Scoggins, he was given 4-5 pictures to look at, and he narrowed it down to 2. One was Oswald. He said they both looked older than what he saw... but added that he's not good at recognizing ppl from pictures.

You're so forgiving.... He had identified Oswald in a line up a day earlier and Oswald's picture was all over the media by then and he still couldn't pick him out.... It's pathetic!

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2021, 07:54:19 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2021, 08:07:50 PM »
(Boots-on-the-Ground)
Based on his latest performance, how about foot-in-mouth?

seems a reasonable percentage
Please clarify why this would be "resonable".

that would give the sworn witnesses a good deal of credibility.
Please clarify why your "reasonable percentage" would influence the credibility of a witness.

1) Go ahead, Sir Beckley: Continue to sit on your arse while Bill Brown legs it out, talking with people who were there; not stuck in the dead, cold text of conspiracy-monger books
2) Please clarify where I said "resonable"
3) Do the math


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2021, 08:45:29 PM »
1) Go ahead, Sir Beckley: Continue to sit on your arse while Bill Brown legs it out, talking with people who were there; not stuck in the dead, cold text of conspiracy-monger books
2) Please clarify where I said "resonable"
3) Do the math

1) Go ahead, Sir Beckley: Continue to sit on your arse while Bill Brown legs it out, talking with people who were there; not stuck in the dead, cold text of conspiracy-monger books

Coming from a guy who has never been to Dallas and yet still claims to know all sorts of stuff about this case, this is completely hilarious.

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2021, 08:45:29 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: DPD Tapes and a 6 Minute Discrepancy
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2021, 09:07:48 PM »
What you are saying is that Bowley's watch must be correct be cause it fits your timeline. That line of argument says more about your ego than it does about the accuracy of Bowley's watch. Sniping aside, you're really down to arguing that Bowley's watch must be correct because it fits your timeline ...

Pretty hollow coming from one of the guys who assumes the time checks on the dictabelt recordings must be correct because it fits your timeline.

Quote
When you actually look at the data in the transcripts and the recordings themselves, you'll find that that Bowles and Cason were correct when they said that the DPD kept the dispatcher clocks within a minute of each other.

When did Bowles say that?

Quote
Dan and I have already demonstrated that using the simulcast and semi-simulcast traffic just after the shooting demonstrate that the DPD clocks were within a minute of each other

Irrelevant, even if that was demonstrable.  Even if two clocks agree with each other that doesn't mean that either one is correct.

Quote
And you you need to account for the Dudley Hughes data as well.

What Dudley Hughes data?