Et tu, Bonnie?

[Colin Crow]

http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tom_alyea_film.htm

Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?
Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.
Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Thanks Chris,

What to make of this?

Addendum #2

From: Dale Myers (dmyers@rust.net)
Subject: Re: Tom Alyea on the sixth floor evidence
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Date: 1999/07/04

As we all know, time alters recollections. Case in point: compare Tom Alyea's more recent statements (posted by Dave Reitzes) with his statement from December 19, 1963:

------------------------------[quote on]

"...I ran on upstairs with the Secret Service men. Then other units came in - the Riot Squad. I thought I was going to film a gun fight. They ran to the 4th floor and I went with them. Some of the other units went to the top of the building. They were conducting a systematic search. It boiled down to the sixth floor. After awhile it was obvious that the assassin was not in the building. They looked for the gun. I filmed 400 ft. of film of the Secret Service men looking for the assassin, climbing over boxes, over the rafters, and the actual finding of the gun. At the time it was suspected that the assassin had stayed quite a time there. There was a stack with a stack of chicken bones on it. There was a Dr. Pepper bottle which they dusted for fingerprints. The fingerprints were not Oswald's. You know how he piled the boxes up? The gun was found across the length of the room from where he fired. It was stashed between boxes. I had difficulty in filming. They did not want me closeto the window or to the gun. I asked permission to go to the window to film. A Secret Service man said, 'You are close enough.' I asked the Secret Service man to take pictures of the stashed gun. I set the camera but he wiggled the camera. I got a picture of them taking the gun from the hiding place and dusting it for fingerprints. After this the Crime Lab man, Captain Will Fritz - and I have footage of this - pulled the bolt back and a live round came out. They dusted the gun for fingerprints. This was my third camera. They wouldn't let me out of the building and they wouldn't let anyone else in. I never saw my film on the air because I had to get the film to someone outside. This was the first film from there. We had Mal Couch's film of the crowd but not of the President being hit. [How did you get the film out?] There's a story for you. I actually handed it out through the door but it had been publicized over the air and established everywhere that I had thrown it out of the building through a window. I hesitate to tell you the real story. I started to throw it out of the building but being so close and knowing that we had the other film, I wanted our station to be the first to show a film of the assassination. A A.J. L'Hoste was under the window. I yelled out to him. In actuality I tossed the film out the front door to Ron Reiland who had gotten back from covering the apprehension of Oswald at the Texas Theater. This was another ABC exclusive. There were 2 policemen at the Depository door. They were not sure that I should get things outside. Ron was outside and I was inside. One of the policemen there called a Lieutenant and while they were calling him, I threw the film out....."


Some other interesting recollections to be found here....

https://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html

[Alan Ford]

Thanks Chris,

What to make of this?

Addendum #2

From: Dale Myers (dmyers@rust.net)
Subject: Re: Tom Alyea on the sixth floor evidence
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Date: 1999/07/04

As we all know, time alters recollections. Case in point: compare Tom Alyea's more recent statements (posted by Dave Reitzes) with his statement from December 19, 1963:

------------------------------[quote on]

"...I ran on upstairs with the Secret Service men. Then other units came in - the Riot Squad. I thought I was going to film a gun fight. They ran to the 4th floor and I went with them. Some of the other units went to the top of the building. They were conducting a systematic search. It boiled down to the sixth floor. After awhile it was obvious that the assassin was not in the building. They looked for the gun. I filmed 400 ft. of film of the Secret Service men looking for the assassin, climbing over boxes, over the rafters, and the actual finding of the gun. At the time it was suspected that the assassin had stayed quite a time there. There was a stack with a stack of chicken bones on it. There was a Dr. Pepper bottle which they dusted for fingerprints. The fingerprints were not Oswald's. You know how he piled the boxes up? The gun was found across the length of the room from where he fired. It was stashed between boxes. I had difficulty in filming. They did not want me closeto the window or to the gun. I asked permission to go to the window to film. A Secret Service man said, 'You are close enough.' I asked the Secret Service man to take pictures of the stashed gun. I set the camera but he wiggled the camera. I got a picture of them taking the gun from the hiding place and dusting it for fingerprints. After this the Crime Lab man, Captain Will Fritz - and I have footage of this - pulled the bolt back and a live round came out. They dusted the gun for fingerprints. This was my third camera. They wouldn't let me out of the building and they wouldn't let anyone else in. I never saw my film on the air because I had to get the film to someone outside. This was the first film from there. We had Mal Couch's film of the crowd but not of the President being hit. [How did you get the film out?] There's a story for you. I actually handed it out through the door but it had been publicized over the air and established everywhere that I had thrown it out of the building through a window. I hesitate to tell you the real story. I started to throw it out of the building but being so close and knowing that we had the other film, I wanted our station to be the first to show a film of the assassination. A A.J. L'Hoste was under the window. I yelled out to him. In actuality I tossed the film out the front door to Ron Reiland who had gotten back from covering the apprehension of Oswald at the Texas Theater. This was another ABC exclusive. There were 2 policemen at the Depository door. They were not sure that I should get things outside. Ron was outside and I was inside. One of the policemen there called a Lieutenant and while they were calling him, I threw the film out....."

I've never been able to find the original document from which this quotation comes, though I have no particular reason to doubt that it exists somewhere.

Yes, it would certainly seem that Mr Alyea played ball with the official story originally. However (see below) he was quite, quite emphatic about the matter in later years-----to the point of sounding really quite exercised about how ridiculous he found it that officers still clung to the official version of events.

Some other interesting recollections to be found here....

https://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html

EXCERPT:

Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put it in a report and they must stick to it.

One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the 6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the window.

Given just how emphatic Mr Alyea is here, how confident can we that the 12/19/63 document offers an accurate transcription of his words?

[Alan Ford]

Thank you very much for your detailed response, Mr Crow---------appreciated! 

It seems to me the time is extremely important because it confronts us with a truly absurd scenario: several witnesses (Messrs Brennan, Fischer, Edwards & Euins) have immediately after the shooting pointed police straight to the SN. How on earth did it take officers some 40 minutes to 'find' a SN they should have been able to find within five minutes? Makes absolutely no sense. I simply cannot buy the official line that 'We searched all the floors until we found the shells etc'.

I suspect the following is what really happened:

The above-named witnesses miscounted the floors (an easy thing to do from the outside) and word got around amongst officers that the shooter had fired from the southeast window on the fifth floor. That window became the initial focus of attention and was checked out very quickly indeed. It remained the assumed SN window until shells were discovered at the sixth floor window immediately above it. Chicken bones had been the only item of even remote interest found by the fifth floor window, and now they were taken up to the sixth floor (as per Mr Alyea) because word had gone out prematurely that the assassin's food had been found.

Mr Bonnie Ray Williams was subsequently pressurized into saying he had gone up to the sixth floor----------the police needed to explain away the chicken bones that had been stupidly tied to the assassin. This bequeathed quite a headache to the Warren Commission.

At 4:55 in this video the presenter tells us Dallas police have found fried chicken remains and paper on FIFTH floor, which is where the shooter is believed to have fired from.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tsR8PGx2ZE

I believe this was the precise state of play at the time: police-------based on miscounted 'fifth floor' reports from witnesses (Mr Brennan et al)-------focused all their attention in the initial phase on the fifth floor. All they found was some lousy chicken bones.

Only when------many minutes later-------they found shells a floor above did they realize their error. In true CYA style, some fool elected to move the chicken bones up a floor. They are in and of themselves a complete red herring.

Mr Williams was later shown Mr Studebaker's photo and told to testify to that scene. The poor man hadn't a clue what exactly it was he was supposed to have eaten up there (hence the chicken-on-the-bone-sandwich nonsense)

[Colin Crow]

At 4:55 in this video the presenter tells us Dallas police have found fried chicken remains and paper on FIFTH floor, which is where the shooter is believed to have fired from.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tsR8PGx2ZE

I believe this was the precise state of play at the time: police-------based on miscounted 'fifth floor' reports from witnesses (Mr Brennan et al)-------focused all their attention in the initial phase on the fifth floor. All they found was some lousy chicken bones.

Only when------many minutes later-------they found shells a floor above did they realize their error. In true CYA style, some fool elected to move the chicken bones up a floor. They are in and of themselves a complete red herring.

Mr Williams was later shown Mr Studebaker's photo and told to testify to that scene. The poor man hadn't a clue what exactly it was he was supposed to have eaten up there (hence the chicken-on-the-bone-sandwich nonsense)

Or the mention of the 5th floor was simply an error in the confusion. I don’t recall a focus on the fifth floor. Sawyer and a few others went to the 4th via the passenger elevator and came back down. Others mentioned a floor by floor search. Have you anything that states "we went immediately to the fifth floor".

Can you identify who you think told Williams? Why not just get Givens to say they were his....a far more pliable witness. How many people do you believe were involved in the consiracy?

[Dan O'meara]

Or the mention of the 5th floor was simply an error in the confusion. I don’t recall a focus on the fifth floor. Sawyer and a few others went to the 4th via the passenger elevator and came back down. Others mentioned a floor by floor search. Have you anything that states "we went immediately to the fifth floor".

Can you identify who you think told Williams? Why not just get Givens to say they were his....a far more pliable witness. How many people do you believe were involved in the consiracy?

The transcript of the Dallas police tapes reveals that within the first 10 minutes reports came in for a gunman on the 5th floor, the 2nd floor and the "upper right hand corner" (6th floor ?).
Even though it was generally believed the gunman was still in the building, Sawyer and others went up as far as the 4th floor after which it seems to have been decided to conduct a more systematic search. The floor to floor searches weren't looking for signs of a gunman (or gunmen), they were looking for the actual shooter(s).
It was during this more systematic phase that the SN was discovered (my reading of various testimonies places this around 1:00 PM)

And it wasn't just chicken bones that were discovered but a partially eaten piece of chicken on the bone (I don't think this piece of chicken was actually eaten. I think part of the chicken was stripped off to make a sandwich leaving the remaining chicken on the bone to be eaten afterwards)
If the lunch remains were taken up from the 5th and placed on the SN I don't see why it would be then tidied away before Studebaker took his photos.

It would be good to locate the early statement by Alyea about chicken remains on the 6th floor because he seems really emphatic this wasn't the case in later statements and, judging by how scathing he is of the investigation, I don't get the impression he would've gone along with some bogus story.

[Colin Crow]

The transcript of the Dallas police tapes reveals that within the first 10 minutes reports came in for a gunman on the 5th floor, the 2nd floor and the "upper right hand corner" (6th floor ?).
Even though it was generally believed the gunman was still in the building, Sawyer and others went up as far as the 4th floor after which it seems to have been decided to conduct a more systematic search. The floor to floor searches weren't looking for signs of a gunman (or gunmen), they were looking for the actual shooter(s).
It was during this more systematic phase that the SN was discovered (my reading of various testimonies places this around 1:00 PM)

And it wasn't just chicken bones that were discovered but a partially eaten piece of chicken on the bone (I don't think this piece of chicken was actually eaten. I think part of the chicken was stripped off to make a sandwich leaving the remaining chicken on the bone to be eaten afterwards)
If the lunch remains were taken up from the 5th and placed on the SN I don't see why it would be then tidied away before Studebaker took his photos.

It would be good to locate the early statement by Alyea about chicken remains on the 6th floor because he seems really emphatic this wasn't the case in later statements and, judging by how scathing he is of the investigation, I don't get the impression he would've gone along with some bogus story.

I am yet to see anything that would suggest Alyea arrived at the SN before Fritz. If so the lunch had already been moved and the bones placed in the bag likely by Hill. Remember the recollection of Jim Ewell.

JIM EWELL, NEWS REPORTER
I had been a newspaper reporter for about fifteen years, and I thought that I was a seasoned professional. But now that the weight of this was coming down on me, I was beginning to get woozy. I felt light headed. But I do remember standing there with the police not knowing if they still had somebody trapped upstairs, or if there was going to be an outbreak of gunfire if they exposed somebody. And again, we didn't know how badly hurt was, at least I didn't. Meanwhile Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald's little fried chicken lunch. It in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to
him down on the street that the fried chicken what he had been eating. About that time there was a commotion around one of the squad cars, and we could hear a radio saying that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff.

[Alan Ford]

Or the mention of the 5th floor was simply an error in the confusion.

Well, it was an error that started with the witnesses-------and then IMO spread to officers inside the building

I don’t recall a focus on the fifth floor. Sawyer and a few others went to the 4th via the passenger elevator and came back down. Others mentioned a floor by floor search. Have you anything that states "we went immediately to the fifth floor".

If this rather large and rather embarrassing initial error was indeed made by officers searching the building, then it would have been hushed up afterwards. The accounts given by Inspector Sawyer et al are after the event and not to be trusted. That they were all well capable of sticking rigidly to an agreed script was certainly the belief of Mr Alyea

Can you identify who you think told Williams? Why not just get Givens to say they were his....a far more pliable witness.

It was established that Mr Givens did not stay in the building for the motorcade. Mr Williams did----much better to put the chicken in his hands

How many people do you believe were involved in the consiracy?

No idea

[Alan Ford]

The transcript of the Dallas police tapes reveals that within the first 10 minutes reports came in for a gunman on the 5th floor, the 2nd floor and the "upper right hand corner" (6th floor ?).
Even though it was generally believed the gunman was still in the building, Sawyer and others went up as far as the 4th floor after which it seems to have been decided to conduct a more systematic search. The floor to floor searches weren't looking for signs of a gunman (or gunmen), they were looking for the actual shooter(s).
It was during this more systematic phase that the SN was discovered (my reading of various testimonies places this around 1:00 PM)

There was no such 'discovery' to be made if the SN's location had already been established by witnesses immediately after the shooting. I believe the wrong southeast window (fifth floor) was checked out, and much, much sooner than 1:10pm. They then spent lots of time looking for a rifle on five.

And it wasn't just chicken bones that were discovered but a partially eaten piece of chicken on the bone (I don't think this piece of chicken was actually eaten. I think part of the chicken was stripped off to make a sandwich leaving the remaining chicken on the bone to be eaten afterwards)
If the lunch remains were taken up from the 5th and placed on the SN I don't see why it would be then tidied away before Studebaker took his photos.

It would be good to locate the early statement by Alyea about chicken remains on the 6th floor because he seems really emphatic this wasn't the case in later statements and, judging by how scathing he is of the investigation, I don't get the impression he would've gone along with some bogus story.

Agreed