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Author Topic: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.  (Read 34248 times)

Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #160 on: December 19, 2023, 10:49:58 PM »
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59:57
VINCE      i have something go you fill it in okay um are you aware the allegations of uh 1:00:03 was it i don't know it was an admiral or captain david osborne about the bullet falling out of the body 1:00:08 during the autopsy i guess when they lifted them up did you see a whole bullet or a fragment 1:00:13 that would fall out of the president
CUSTER       well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
BILL      now now this is 1:00:39 this the the bullet now you when you were doing the x-rays and and you had him on the table and 1:00:45 moving him around didn't you tell me at some point in some of our earlier conversations 1:00:51 that a bullet fragment fell out of the president
CUSTER      this was 1:00:57 this was the time that they found that
BILL       okay and what happened what was their demeanour 1:01:02 what was what happened when that bullet fragment fell out
CUSTER     the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists nonaudible said hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE       1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER     was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE     okay
CUSTER     what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
BILL            just for clarification what area of the body did 1:01:58 it fall out
CUSTER         that was the upper thoracic the upper back
BILL         okay so so it fell out it 1:02:04 literally fell out of the back wound
CUSTER         right
BILL           all right well now the single bullet theory 1:02:11 would have us believe that the bullet went in came out his throat 1:02:17 hit conley in the in the right armpit came out broke his left wrist and they 1:02:23 cut the radial nerve and went into his leg so if you're telling us 1:02:28 that that the bullet fragment fell out of the back that blows the single bullet theory to 1:02:33 hell right there
CUSTER        right
VINCE             and also the fact it was too low on the back to exit the neck you know as far as the right to 1:02:40 left trajectory vertical on horizontal too
BILL        and you're absolutely certain 1:02:45 this bullet fragment fell out of the back
CUSTER          absolutely
BILL             the back wound itself out of the back wound
CUSTER         we lifted him up 1:02:51 man boom and that's where it come out
VINCE           that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL             that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal
CUSTER          right
VINCE               right
BILL               that's something that that i've wanted to clear up
CUSTER          they 1:03:02 documented everything that happened that evening
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 05:47:44 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #160 on: December 19, 2023, 10:49:58 PM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #161 on: December 20, 2023, 12:00:36 AM »
59:57
VINCE      i have something go you fill it in okay um are you aware the allegations of uh 1:00:03 was it i don't know it was an admiral or captain david osborne about the bullet falling out of the body 1:00:08 during the autopsy i guess when they lifted them up did you see a whole bullet or a fragment 1:00:13 that would fall out of the president
CUSTER       well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
BILL      now now this is 1:00:39 this the the bullet now you when you were doing the x-rays and and you had him on the table and 1:00:45 moving him around didn't you tell me at some point in some of our earlier conversations 1:00:51 that a bullet fragment fell out of the president
CUSTER      this was 1:00:57 this was the time that they found that
BILL       okay and what happened what was their demeanour 1:01:02 what was what happened when that bullet fragment fell out
CUSTER     the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists nonaudible said hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE       1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER     was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE     okay
CUSTER     what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
BILL            just for clarification what area of the body did 1:01:58 it fall out
CUSTER         that was the upper thoracic the upper back
BILL         okay so so it fell out it 1:02:04 literally fell out of the back wound
CUSTER         right
BILL           all right well now the single bullet theory 1:02:11 would have us believe that the bullet went in came out his throat 1:02:17 hit conley in the in the right armpit came out broke his left wrist and they 1:02:23 cut the radial nerve and went into his leg so if you're telling us 1:02:28 that that the bullet fragment fell out of the back that blows the single bullet theory to 1:02:33 hell right there
CUSTER        right
VINCE             and also the fact it was too low on the back to exit the neck you know as far as the right to 1:02:40 left trajectory vertical on horizontal too
BILL        and you're absolutely certain 1:02:45 this bullet fragment fell out of the back
CUSTER          absolutely
BILL             the back wound itself out of the back wound
CUSTER         we lifted him up 1:02:51 man boom and that's where it come out
VINCE           that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL             that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal
CUSTER          right
VINCE               right
BILL               that's something that that i've wanted to clear up
CUSTER          they 1:03:02 documented everything that happened that evening

Ok lemmeseeenow.
I reckon that that CUSTER fragment fell out of jfk's head, either from inside the head (AR15), or from outside (eg from the hair)(Carcano)(from shot-1 ricochet).
I reckon that Custer was wrong. The fragment did not come from the back/neck wound (Carcano)(impossible).
I reckon that the fragment fell out of (or off) the head earlier, & the fragment was sitting (stuck) to jfk's back, ie under jfk. And then fell off his back when jfk was moved.

If it was a large fragment then it must have come from inside the head (AR15).
I reckon that a large fragment on the outside of the head (from ricochet)(Carcano) would have been evident at Parkdale.
If it was a small fragment (Carcano) then i reckon that it could have been (hidden) on the outside of the head (or it could have been on the inside)(AR15).
If the fragment was on the outside (Carcano) then the question arises........... was the fragment made of copper (brass) or lead? I think lead (from Carcano)(or from AR15).
If the fragment was copper (brass) then that would definitely be from the ricochet (Carcano).

And the question arises........ did the fragment fall out before or after or during the xray(s)? I think before.
But, Custer said that he took his xrays after jfk had been moved around. Dunno.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 05:47:18 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #162 on: December 20, 2023, 02:43:40 AM »
CUSTER       well i wouldn't call it a fragment i'd say it was pretty sized 1:00:20 a real bullet right because it created such a fuss they ran over with a set of forceps 1:00:27 forceps are like a pair of scissors but they're flattened on the end so they could grab 1:00:32 and then grabbed it picked it up and put it in a little basin of water
CUSTER     the i called 1:01:08 one of the surgeons or one of the pathologists sermons said hey we have a bullet here 1:01:13 as soon as they heard that they come down off of the uh raised platform and ran over and then they 1:01:20 picked it up then siebert and neil also come over and said well we want that that's
VINCE       1:01:26 because they have a receipt for a missile a lot of times people think it's semantics it wasn't a fragment so you're saying it wasn't a whole bullet it was a 1:01:33 sizeable fragment of it
CUSTER     was well let's 1:01:38 see you you're beginning in semantics here about sizable uh 1:01:44 it was distinguishable enough to know it was a bullet
VINCE     okay
CUSTER     what but it wasn't complete because 1:01:51 there was some fragmentation some area of destruction on the bullet
VINCE           that's corroboration for david osborne too 1:02:56 yeah
BILL             that would explain missile received from siebert and o'neal [/u]

I reckon that the Custer fragment was probly a small part of the hollow point AR15 .223  slug that exploded in jfk's head, but this small fragment would not look like a bullet.
The main remnant fragment of that slug (that looked like a bullet) exited jfk's head & cracked the windshield.
Tests in gelatine all show that a hollow point yields a remnant fragment that looks like a bullet. And it penetrates a long way past the smaller fragments. And it sometimes veers say 10 degrees.
Praps that remnant slug bounced back into jfk's head (after cracking the windshield). Highly unlikely.
Praps it lodged in jfk's clothing (instead of jfk's head), but then the slug would surely have been found at Parkland.

Its a mystery. Ok. I have made up my mind.
Its the remnant from the headshot.
But where did it finish?  In head?  In clothing? 
And how come it wasnt found at Parkland?
And where is it now? 
It was never heard of again (in official reports). Koz it was obviously not from a Carcano, it was from the AR15.
I need to read up on what Dr David Osborne said.


« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 02:44:37 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #162 on: December 20, 2023, 02:43:40 AM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #163 on: December 20, 2023, 03:47:27 AM »
https://www.patspeer.com/reclaimng-history-from-reclaiming-history-part-ii
After reading Pat Speer's wordage (link above) re the autopsy, i reckon that Custer & Osborne did not see
 a largish slug (fragment) fall out of JFK or his clothing (sheets).


775. AFIP Record 205-10001-10002, Memorandum, Dr. Finck to Brigadier Gen. J. M. Blumberg, Personal notes on the Assassination of President Kennedy, February 1, 1965 (hereafter “Memorandum, Finck to Blumberg”), p.1; also ARRB MD 28; Breo, “JFK’s Death, Part III,” p.1749.
7:30 p.m. (8:30p.m. EST)
At the Bethesda Naval Hospital, a hot white light illuminates the hands of the two pathologists huddled over the body of the late president. In the interests of time, Dr. Humes decided not to wait for Lieutenant Colonel Finck to arrive at Bethesda. Instead, he and Dr. Boswell set about the task of recovering the two largest bullet fragments seen in the X-rays of the president's skull. The hole in the right side of the head was immense (over five inches in its greatest diameter), making access to the brain relatively easy. Portions of the skull, literally shattered by the force of the bullet, fall apart in the hands of the two pathologists as they try to reach the minute fragments behind the right eye and near the back of the skull .795
795. 2 H 353–354, WCT Dr. James J. Humes; 2 H 94, 100, WCT Roy H. Kellerman; ARRB MD 47, Affidavit of Francis X. O’Neill Jr., November 8, 1978, pp.4–5.
Both are recovered,
NOTE: THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE LARGEST WAS RECOVERED FROM BEHIND THE EYE, AS WAS ANOTHER SMALLER ONE FROM BEHIND THE EYE.
433 Both are recovered: Conspiracy theorists, eager to find an extra fourth bullet, one more than Oswald is believed to have fired, and hence a conspiracy, got very excited when they learned that the receipt for the two fragments turned over to FBI agents Sibert and O’Neill on November 22, 1963, and signed by the two agents, refers to a “receipt of a missle [sic]” (HSCA Record 180-10120-10362; JFK Doc- ument 014834). But the HSCA concluded that “the receipt was in error.” Chester H. Boyers, the navy corpsman who typed the receipt, gave HSCA investigators an affidavit under penalty of perjury that contained his handwritten notes at the time of the autopsy, in which he jotted down during the autopsy that “there were bul- let missile fragments recovered. These were placed in a specimen container and delivered to me. The FBI was there and wanted them.” The affidavit says that “although the receipt states that a ‘missile’ was transferred, this is an error” (HSCA Record 180-10120-10362, Affidavit of Chester Boyers, December 4, 1978 p.3, p.2 of accompanying notes). Both Agents Sibert and O’Neill confirmed to the HSCA that they received two bullet fragments, not a missile. As Sibert put it in an affidavit, “Regarding the receipt for the ‘missile,’ I do not recall exactly how the receipt described the fragments but it was certainly not for a whole missile, rather it was for some fragments. [“Two metal fragments,” he says earlier.] A single mis- sile to me means considerable substance, more of a whole bullet. This receipt was prepared by someone else and typed up by a naval corpsman. If I had prepared the receipt, I would have listed the items as metal fragments” (7 HSCA 11–12; JFK Document 002191, HSCA interview of Sibert on August 25, 1977; HSCA 180- 10100-10135, Affidavit of Sibert on October 24, 1978, p.5; JFK Document 006185, HSCA interview of O’Neill on January 10, 1978).

In 1975, Dennis David, a navy first-class petty officer at the time of the assassination who later became a key cog in conspiracy author David Lifton’s zany body-alteration theory, claimed that he was the one who typed up the receipt for the bullet fragments. During an interview for Lifton’s book, David claimed that a Secret Service agent reportedly dictated the receipt in the administrative offices, describing the physical characteristics of four bullet fragments. David said he kept no copies. “I just typed it on an original . . . and handed it to the Secret Service agent. And the agent made some comment about, ‘This is considered classified material. Secret.’ Or something to that effect” (Lifton, Best Evidence, p.579). By 1997, David was claiming that the unnamed agent allowed him to handle the frag- ments, then admonished him about security concerns, told him to treat the information as classified, and confiscated all copies of the memo “including the pieces of carbon paper, and even took the ribbon from the IBM Selectric typewriter with him” (ARRB MD 177, ARRB interview of Dennis David, February 14, 1997, pp.2–3). David’s credibility couldn’t be any lower in this regard. His name doesn’t appear on any list of personnel involved in the autopsy (7 HSCA 8–9), nor is his story about typing the receipt for four bullet fragments corroborated by anyone. In addition, David admitted being hypnotized in 1994 in New York State to recover memories of the autopsy events (ARRB MD 177, ARRB interview of Dennis David, February 14, 1997, p.4; see also Law with Eaglesham, In the Eye of History, pp.12–13).

Although the “fourth bullet rather than two fragments” argument is deader than a doornail, David Lifton has persisted in trying to keep it alive, and his weapon is the faulty memory of others.

In 1978, Admiral David Osborne told HSCA investigators that at the time of the autopsy (Osborne was then a captain and chief of surgery at Bethesda) he saw a “fully intact, copper-clad slug” roll out of the president’s clothing onto the table when the president’s shoulders were raised to remove the suit coat Osborne said Kennedy was wearing (ARRB MD 66, HSCA Outside Contact Report of interview of Admiral David Osborne, June 20, 1978, p.3).
Of course, throughout the HSCA’s entire investigation no one else had told the committee about seeing a slug on the autopsy table or anywhere else at Bethesda.
The HSCA said it “recontacted Admiral Osborne and informed him that the body of the president had not arrived in any clothes [as Osborne said], but was wrapped in sheets, and that no one else recalled anything about the discovery of a missile.
Osborne then said that he could not be sure he actually did see a mis- sile and that it was possible the FBI and Secret Service only spoke about the dis- covery of a missile” (7 HSCA 15–16; ARRB MD 16, HSCA Outside Contact Report of interview of David Osborne on June 20, 1978, p.3).

Lifton contacted Osborne the next year and Osborne proceeded to tell him his original story, claiming that Kennedy arrived in his casket in his clothing, and a “reasonably clean, unmarred” bullet fell from the clothing.
But now Osborne added a real zinger. He not only saw the bullet, which is what he told the HSCA, he held “that bullet in my hand.” (Lifton, Best Evidence, pp.645–646) My, my.

Lifton next contacted Captain John Stover in April of 1980. Stover had been the commanding officer of the U.S. Naval Medical School and, like Osborne, was in the autopsy room during the autopsy.
Lifton says that Stover confirmed Osborne’s assertion that there was a bullet in the autopsy room, saying, “It seems to me that the one they found in Dallas they brought up . . . I think it was in a brown paper envelope” (Lifton, Best Evidence, p.651).
If I can conclude this silly story with one observation over and above the fact that it has been established beyond any reasonable doubt that two large bullet fragments, not a missile or bullet, were found during the autopsy, it would be this.
As set forth in the text, we know that Dr. James Humes and his two fellow autopsy surgeons were completely perplexed over (and made a very big issue out of) the fact that they could not find or figure out what happened to the bullet that entered the upper right part of the president’s back, Humes only determining what happened to it the following morning when he spoke on the phone to Dr. Malcolm Perry.
If, indeed, Drs. Osborne and Stover recall seeing an intact bullet in the autopsy room that night—and if we’re to believe Osborne, he actually held it in his hand—why didn’t either one of them bother to mention this bullet to the three pathologists who were so troubled all evening by its absence? You know, “Dr. Humes? Here’s the bullet you’re looking for.”
placed into a glass jar with a black metal top, and turned over later in the evening to FBI agents for transport to the FBI laboratory.796* (FOOTNOTE)
*No bullet, or significant portion thereof, was found in either Kennedy's or Connally's body.
796. ARRB MD 44, FBI Report of O’Neill and Sibert, November 26, 1963, p.4.

To remove the brain, Humes and Boswell use a scalpel to extend the lacerations of the scalp downward toward the ears. Normally, a saw would be used to cut the skullcap and remove the brain. Here, the damage is so devastating that the doctors can lift the brain out of the head without recourse to a saw. 797
797. 2 H 354, WCT Dr. James J. Humes; ARRB MD 19, Memorandum to File, Andy Purdy, August 17, 1977, p.17; AFIP Record 205-10001-10002, Memorandum, Finck to Blumberg, p.2; also ARRB MD 28; Breo, “JFK’s Death—The Plain Truth from the MDs Who Did the Autopsy,” p.2798.
The left hemisphere of the brain is intact, while the damage to the right one is massive.'"
798. CE 391, 16 H 981, 987.
Just as the brain is fixed in formalin for further study, Lieutenant Colonel Finck walks into the autopsy room


See also.........
https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/pdf/HSCA_Vol7_M2_Autopsy.pdf
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md66.pdf
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 04:05:14 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2023, 08:30:42 PM »
We need 2 new Xs to mark jfk's pozzie at shot-1 & shot-2.

Pozzie of X1 (shot-1).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, just west of the overhead signals, such that a line from
Point-1A (Oswald's Carcano in the window) passes throo
Point-1B (the west edge of the west guyrod 6" north of the collar on the main pipe of the overhead signals)(old signals now gone)(new signals different i guess) & that line passes throo
Point-1C (your chest). Point-1C would have been jfk's heart back in 22nov1963). I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is a mile too far west.

Pozzie of X2 (shot-2).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, such that a line from
Point-2A (Zapruder's camera up on pedestal) passes throo
Point-2B (the midpoint of the old Stemmons sign)(now gone) & that line passes throo
Point-2C (your nose). Point-2C would have been jfk at Z218. Shot-2 of course came from the Carcano. I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is too far west.

Pozzie of X3 X4 X5 X6 (shots-3 4 5 & 6)(Hickey's AR15).
Point-3 is when jfk is at say Z300.
Point-6 is when jfk is at Z313. The existing X on Elm St is probly ok.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2023, 10:19:41 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #164 on: December 27, 2023, 08:30:42 PM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #165 on: January 12, 2024, 02:54:14 AM »
Buell Frazier might have been able to see the Oswald shot-1 ricochet hit JFK in the back of his head (xrays).
..................."My god i have been hit".


« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 02:55:59 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Offline Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #166 on: January 14, 2024, 12:41:19 PM »
We need 2 new Xs to mark jfk's pozzie at shot-1 & shot-2.

Pozzie of X1 (shot-1).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, just west of the overhead signals, such that a line from
Point-1A (Oswald's Carcano in the window) passes throo
Point-1B (the west edge of the west guyrod 6" north of the collar on the main pipe of the overhead signals)(old signals now gone)(new signals different i guess) & that line passes throo
Point-1C (your chest). Point-1C would have been jfk's heart back in 22nov1963). I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is a mile too far west.

Pozzie of X2 (shot-2).
Stand 3ft north of the center of the center lane, such that a line from
Point-2A (Zapruder's camera up on pedestal) passes throo
Point-2B (the midpoint of the old Stemmons sign)(now gone) & that line passes throo
Point-2C (your nose). Point-2C would have been jfk at Z218. Shot-2 of course came from the Carcano. I suppose that the existing X on Elm St is too far west.

Pozzie of X3 X4 X5 X6 (shots-3 4 5 & 6)(Hickey's AR15).
Point-3 is when jfk is at say Z300.
Point-6 is when jfk is at Z313. The existing X on Elm St is probly ok.

For any newcomers or for those who aren't familiar with this whacky theory, this Z105-113 ricochet-shot/Z132-133-gap-shot theory is a fringe theory (1) that is demonstrably false, and (2) that nearly all researchers view as preposterous and unserious.

In Z105-113, JFK's limousine is not even on Elm Street yet. The limo is still on Houston Street during these frames. How in the world would any sixth-floor gunman have fired a shot that could have hit the guy rod/support pole of the traffic signal on Elm Street in front of the Book Depository if he had been aiming at a target that was on Houston Street during these frames? This is beyond absurd.

A version of this theory is that the sixth-floor gunman fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133 and hit the traffic signal's guy rod or support pole, producing ricochet fragments. According to this theory, one of the ricochet fragments traveled over 400 feet to strike the curb near James Tague with enough velocity to cause a chip in the curb and to send a chip of concrete streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face!

Some adherents to this Z132-133-gap-shot theory also posit that two other fragments from this shot struck the back of JFK's head and constitute the two back-of-head fragments seen on the skull x-rays. However, they cannot explain why JFK shows no reaction to this wounding, or to any wounding, in the 60 frames following Z133. They also refuse to face the fact that JFK's head was not in position to be struck from behind in Z133--in Z133 he is facing to the right and waving at the crowd.

The impact of the two back-of-head fragments would have caused a painful stinging sensation. One of the fragments tore through all five layers of the scalp, including the galea and the periosteum (two tough lower layers of fibrous tissue) and penetrated into the outer table of the skull. The other fragment tore through four of the five scalp layers and lodged in the periosteum (i.e., between the galea and the outer table). These penetrations would have been noticeable and painful, and would have immediately alerted JFK that something serious and threatening had just occurred. 

Yet, from Z133 until around Z194, JFK acts as though everything is fine. He continues to wave and smile at the crowd. He would not have acted like this if he had just had one bullet fragment tear through four of the five layers of his scalp and had had another bullet fragment tear through all five layers of his scalp and penetrate into his outer skull bone.

A key component of this whacky, ridiculous theory is the debunked claim that the explosive head shot in Z313 was accidentally fired by Secret Service agent George Hickey in the follow-up car. JFK aide Dave Powers was riding in the follow-up car with Hickey. When asked about the nutty claim that Hickey accidentally fired at JFK, Powers said, "someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire the gun without me hearing it.” No one else in the follow-up car reported hearing Hickey fire a shot either, including another Kennedy aide, Kenny O'Donnell.

Significantly, when Kennedy O'Donnell revealed to former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill that he heard shots from the grassy knoll, he said nothing about hearing Hickey fire a shot. Powers confirmed O'Donnell's account of hearing shots from the grassy knoll. Both men were highly critical of the Secret Service's failure to protect JFK. Neither man would have had any hesitation about revealing to O'Neill that Hickey had accidentally fired a shot toward JFK.





« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 12:47:58 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #166 on: January 14, 2024, 12:41:19 PM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: Oswald's shot-1 ricochet was at Z113 or Z105.
« Reply #167 on: January 14, 2024, 01:28:54 PM »
Quotes from Michael T. Griffith..........
For any newcomers or for those who aren't familiar with this whacky theory, this Z105-113 ricochet-shot/Z132-133-gap-shot theory is a fringe theory (1) that is demonstrably false, and (2) that nearly all researchers view as preposterous and unserious.
I agree with u. My own ricochet theory is correct.

In Z105-113, JFK's limousine is not even on Elm Street yet. The limo is still on Houston Street during these frames. How in the world would any sixth-floor gunman have fired a shot that could have hit the guy rod/support pole of the traffic signal on Elm Street in front of the Book Depository if he had been aiming at a target that was on Houston Street during these frames? This is beyond absurd.
The pozzie of X1 is a location on the ground. Z105 etc are not locations, they are merely estimates of when X1 happened.

A version of this theory is that the sixth-floor gunman fired during the 3-4-second gap between Z132 and Z133 and hit the traffic signal's guy rod or support pole, producing ricochet fragments. According to this theory, one of the ricochet fragments traveled over 400 feet to strike the curb near James Tague with enough velocity to cause a chip in the curb and to send a chip of concrete streaking toward Tague with enough velocity to cut his face!
I agree with u that that long distance ricochet theory is absurd.

Some adherents to this Z132-133-gap-shot theory also posit that two other fragments from this shot struck the back of JFK's head and constitute the two back-of-head fragments seen on the skull x-rays. However, they cannot explain why JFK shows no reaction to this wounding, or to any wounding, in the 60 frames following Z133. They also refuse to face the fact that JFK's head was not in position to be struck from behind in Z133--in Z133 he is facing to the right and waving at the crowd.
Yes the ricochet offa the signal arm splattered the back of jfk's head. This was at approximately pseudo Z105.
Roselle & Scearce wrote a number of papers re reactions to an early shot, alltho they had it at about Z125 i think.

The impact of the two back-of-head fragments would have caused a painful stinging sensation. One of the fragments tore through all five layers of the scalp, including the galea and the periosteum (two tough lower layers of fibrous tissue) and penetrated into the outer table of the skull. The other fragment tore through four of the five scalp layers and lodged in the periosteum (i.e., between the galea and the outer table). These penetrations would have been noticeable and painful, and would have immediately alerted JFK that something serious and threatening had just occurred. 
Blood sugar tests use a quick prick koz a quick prick is less painful than a slow prick.

Yet, from Z133 until around Z194, JFK acts as though everything is fine. He continues to wave and smile at the crowd. He would not have acted like this if he had just had one bullet fragment tear through four of the five layers of his scalp and had had another bullet fragment tear through all five layers of his scalp and penetrate into his outer skull bone.


A key component of this whacky, ridiculous theory is the debunked claim that the explosive head shot in Z313 was accidentally fired by Secret Service agent George Hickey in the follow-up car. JFK aide Dave Powers was riding in the follow-up car with Hickey. When asked about the nutty claim that Hickey accidentally fired at JFK, Powers said, "someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire the gun without me hearing it.” No one else in the follow-up car reported hearing Hickey fire a shot either, including another Kennedy aide, Kenny O'Donnell.
Yes. Powers did not & would not lie. He merely uttered an obviously true statement, a statement that was not a denial. In other words, Powers never denied that he heard Hickey shoot.

Significantly, when Kennedy O'Donnell revealed to former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill that he heard shots from the grassy knoll, he said nothing about hearing Hickey fire a shot. Powers confirmed O'Donnell's account of hearing shots from the grassy knoll. Both men were highly critical of the Secret Service's failure to protect JFK. Neither man would have had any hesitation about revealing to O'Neill that Hickey had accidentally fired a shot toward JFK.
Hearing an echo of a shot is not the same as hearing the shot. And, echoes are usually louder than the source, if the fence-wall is close, especially if the fence-wall is concave.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 01:30:42 PM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »