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Author Topic: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?  (Read 47426 times)

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #152 on: February 18, 2021, 05:30:55 AM »
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From your previous post:

"Apparent gap between top of "rifleman" head to top of window opening (30" and 36" per A. Rowland WC testimony)"

This is an erroneous parameter. Rowland misunderstands the question about the space between the rifleman's head and the top of the window as meaning the distance of his head away from the top of the window. The answer he gives is consistent with his estimation of how far in the building the rifleman is stood.
He is hardly describing the top half of the man's body plus another 36" seen through a 30" inch gap of the open window. Below is a very rough graphic meant to illustrate a basic principle. The gap between sill and the centre of the full window is represented by a red line. The same redline is overlaid on the middle of the trio to give a very basic idea of what someone looking through the window should see.
Obviously the further away from the window the man is stood the more of him would be visible as the angle of LoS from Rowland is a lot more shallow than that shown in the image.
It's basic and meant to convey a basic idea.


Let's go back to what Rowland said:

Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Specter asks how far up Rowland can see the man in the TSBD. Rowland says not only that he can see the top of the man's head, but also that there was empty space above the man's head through which he could see the wall behind the man. That space would necessarily be bordered by the top of the man's head and the raised window sash.  Specter immediately follows up, asking Rowland how much space there was between the "top of his head" (the exact phrase Rowland used) and the "open window." Given that Rowland had just brought the subject up, and repeats Rowland's phrasing, there's no reason to claim Rowland was confused about the nature of the question.

Even if we assume, arguendo, that Rowland was confused and simply told Specter the distance between the top of the man's head and the wall in front of him, it's still highly problematic. He's already put the distance at 3 to 5 feet; you'd have us believe that he then decided it was really 2.5 to 3 feet. Assuming your contention makes an Arnold Rowland an easily confused boy too dumb to properly answer what should be a straightforward question and unable to keep his own story straight through the deposition. If that's the best you can do, you need to stop trying before he gets the chair under your defense.

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #152 on: February 18, 2021, 05:30:55 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #153 on: February 18, 2021, 11:11:16 AM »
Let's go back to what Rowland said:

Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Specter asks how far up Rowland can see the man in the TSBD. Rowland says not only that he can see the top of the man's head, but also that there was empty space above the man's head through which he could see the wall behind the man. That space would necessarily be bordered by the top of the man's head and the raised window sash.  Specter immediately follows up, asking Rowland how much space there was between the "top of his head" (the exact phrase Rowland used) and the "open window." Given that Rowland had just brought the subject up, and repeats Rowland's phrasing, there's no reason to claim Rowland was confused about the nature of the question.

Even if we assume, arguendo, that Rowland was confused and simply told Specter the distance between the top of the man's head and the wall in front of him, it's still highly problematic. He's already put the distance at 3 to 5 feet; you'd have us believe that he then decided it was really 2.5 to 3 feet. Assuming your contention makes an Arnold Rowland an easily confused boy too dumb to properly answer what should be a straightforward question and unable to keep his own story straight through the deposition. If that's the best you can do, you need to stop trying before he gets the chair under your defense.

~Grin~

We all know that if Mr Rowland had said
a) the man at the window was Mr Oswald
b) he was holding a rifle that looked like the Carcano
c) he was the only man he saw on that floor
the WC would have given him a laudation and you & Mr Nessan wouldn't now be working up a McAdamsite sweat to find pseudo-problems with his testimony.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2021, 12:53:20 PM »
Let's go back to what Rowland said:

Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Specter asks how far up Rowland can see the man in the TSBD. Rowland says not only that he can see the top of the man's head, but also that there was empty space above the man's head through which he could see the wall behind the man. That space would necessarily be bordered by the top of the man's head and the raised window sash.  Specter immediately follows up, asking Rowland how much space there was between the "top of his head" (the exact phrase Rowland used) and the "open window." Given that Rowland had just brought the subject up, and repeats Rowland's phrasing, there's no reason to claim Rowland was confused about the nature of the question.

Yeah Mitch, it's a really simple misunderstanding. It doesn't make Rowland stupid or confused. And it's easy to see how he could make such a simple mistake - what's the space between the top of his head and the window? It's really not that big of a deal. Unless, of course, you have an interest in undermining Rowland's testimony. His estimation of how far the rifleman is stood in the building is the only aspect of his description he has a problem with and it's no surprise, at a distance it would be an incredibly difficult thing to do.
Obviously, because it is a misunderstanding, you can simply insist that it's not a misunderstanding at all and that he was looking through a 30" gap describing a 36" space to the top of the rifleman's head. That's fair enough.

I view Rowland's description of the rifleman as reliable and consistent - the description he gives his wife before the assassination is consistent with the description he gives in his affidavit is consistent with the description he gives in his WC testimony. The notion that he just made this description up for his wife, then tracked down a police officer and made it up for him then went to the DPD and made it up for his affidavit etc. is, in my opinion, nonsense.
Going back to the pic I posted, although it is a very rough presentation of a basic principle, once it is understood Rowland was not referring to a 3ft space above the rifleman's head, it becomes clear that he was accurately describing what we would expect someone to see looking through the window.

Quote
Even if we assume, arguendo, that Rowland was confused and simply told Specter the distance between the top of the man's head and the wall in front of him, it's still highly problematic. He's already put the distance at 3 to 5 feet; you'd have us believe that he then decided it was really 2.5 to 3 feet. Assuming your contention makes an Arnold Rowland an easily confused boy too dumb to properly answer what should be a straightforward question and unable to keep his own story straight through the deposition. If that's the best you can do, you need to stop trying before he gets the chair under your defense.

"He's already put the distance at 3 to 5 feet; you'd have us believe that he then decided it was really 2.5 to 3 feet."

This is not exactly a mind-bending difference is it. Note that 3ft is in both distances. Not really something I would describe as being "highly problematic". Certainly not a deal-breaker.

"Assuming your contention makes an Arnold Rowland an easily confused boy too dumb to properly answer what should be a straightforward question and unable to keep his own story straight through the deposition. If that's the best you can do, you need to stop trying before he gets the chair under your defense."

So, you've assumed, for argument's sake, Rowland has made a simple misunderstanding and is talking about the distance the rifleman is stood away from the window. You've described this situation as still being "highly problematic". The single example you give to highlight how problematic it is actually demonstrates a consistency with what Rowland has already stated.
Rowland is grilled endlessly on the tiniest detail of what he witnessed and is impressively accurate throughout but because of this single, perfectly understandable misunderstanding he is a "confused boy too dumb to properly answer what should be a straightforward question and unable to keep his own story straight through the deposition".
Let's really assume Rowland has misunderstood the question and answered as honestly as he could - we then find him describing being able to see the rifleman from just below the waist to just above his head. When we look at the pic I posted it is clear this description is perfectly plausible.

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2021, 12:53:20 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #155 on: February 18, 2021, 10:36:16 PM »
A slender heavy 200lb man that weighs 140lbs:

Mr. ROWLAND - He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender.

Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described?
Mr. ROWLAND - I would say about 140 to 150 pounds

-----------------------------------------------------

That picture was of the window facing the west parking lot. It is the only time Walt Cakebread has ever been right. You have to give it to him.

 Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

Mr. SPECTER - Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half?
Mr. ROWLAND - It was the bottom half.

Mr. SPECTER - And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - From where I was standing I could see from his head to about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
Mr. SPECTER - Could you see as far as his knees?
Mr. ROWLAND - No.
---------------

Mr. SPECTER - And from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND - To the top of his head. There was some space on top of that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER - What is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on my part.

----------------------------
LHO had the rifle slightly tipped in the wrong direction to his right but almost verticle ROWLAND - The entire rifle was in my view.
Mr. SPECTER - In the open part of the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.


------------

His head was always below his waist. Every time they asked him a question he proved it. Today it would be called a lifestyle. Describing a rifle as a "thirty odd size six" would be a good example of his head being below his waist. If he really was attempting to reference a 30-06, calling it an import rifle would also be a good example of his head being below his waist.

It is the only time Walt Cakebread has ever been right. You have to give it to him.

Cheap shot, eh Jack.... Of course if you were to extract your head more often, then you'd know that your dead wrong in your smart ass remark.

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #156 on: February 19, 2021, 12:33:53 AM »
Yes ...Day had just came from the TSBD  and brought the carcano into police headquarters.......

What time did Ms Oswald arrive at police headquarters?

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #156 on: February 19, 2021, 12:33:53 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #157 on: February 19, 2021, 01:47:07 AM »
What time did Ms Oswald arrive at police headquarters?

I donno....Why don't you tell me....

Offline Alan Ford

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #158 on: February 19, 2021, 01:50:11 AM »
I donno....Why don't you tell me....

OK, just before 6PM--------------------------WAAAAAAAAAAY after Mr Oswald's first interrogation ended.

So the answer to your question "Isn't it true that he had just taken the rifle to display to Marina Oswald?" is: no.

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #158 on: February 19, 2021, 01:50:11 AM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Did Captain Fritz show Mr Oswald a Mauser?
« Reply #159 on: February 19, 2021, 01:54:04 AM »
OK, just before 6PM--------------------------WAAAAAAAAAAY after Mr Oswald's first interrogation ended.

So the answer to your question "Isn't it true that he had just taken the rifle to display to Marina Oswald?" is: no.

Huh??   So you believe that Lee couldn't have been shown "the murder weapon" at around 3:15 pm, and Marina shown " Lee Oswald's rifle at around 6:00 pm?