Author Topic: Assault on the Capitol  (Read 2013 times)

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2021, 10:30:36 AM »
When Biden speaks on camera, I feel calmer. I actually feel calmer. Two more weeks. Just two more weeks.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2021, 10:35:44 AM »
Watched the last twenty minutes of the certification in Congress. Mike Pence was very good. Very dignified. The ceremony, going state by state, was, again, calming. When they got to Wisconsin, I was expecting trouble. But, while House members objected, of course, the last Senator had withdrawn their objection and so there was no written objection and Pence rejected this. Then Wyoming, followed by a few brief statements of the summary of the count, a short prayer, a short statement by Pence and a sharp, crisp strike of the gravel and it was done. It was actually moving.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 11:19:29 AM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2021, 10:40:30 AM »
Now. Pence need to agree to using the 25th admendment. I don’t want to take time for impeachment. Get the cabinet together and vote. Congress has to go along. Two thirds for both the House and Senate needs to approve. And then Pence can be acting President.

There is some question of legality. There has been so much turmoil that much of the cabinet was not been approved by Congress but are acting cabinet members. The law does not say. I don’t care. Get it done. If four months from now the Supreme Court rules that this was unproper, it won’t matter. Get it done. Get Trump out of there now. Operation Warp Speed.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 11:21:33 AM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2021, 03:24:17 PM »
Well, there’s our answer. Trump has control of the National Guard, until he turns it over to a governor, or in this case, the mayor.

So here is how it must of went down. Just as General Benedict Arnold order as many troops away from West Point, opening up the vital fortress of West Point, and possibly General George Washington himself, to capture by the British army, President Trump did something similar. He may have ordered the National Guard units as far away as possible. In any case, when the Capitol was seized, the mayor of Washington D. C. frantically tried to contact the President, to release the control of the National Guard to her immediately. Trumps advisers told him he must do so. But he kept himself out of communication.

The military would not support his coup attempt. The National Guard would not support his coup attempt. The Washington D. C. police would not support his coup attempt. So, he ordered the only force he had some control over. The Proud Boys and their cohorts. And made certain that the National Guard was not ready and could not be used by anyone as long as possible. And they came within a minute or two of seizing the Vice President, Senators, Congressmen and the ballots themselves. And could be threatened to declare Trump the winner. Unbelievable. Trump only relented when it because clear that they have come close, but failed.

Why could this not have been seen in advance? I remember checking to see who was the general who was head of the local National Guard a couple of weeks ago and I thought everything was going to be taken care of.
Joe: But your account isn't accurate. The White House did authorize the callup of the National Guard. And the DC Mayor called them up per that story I linked to. WH, according to the account, had to intervene to get Trump to issue the order to do so. So it did happen.

From the Haberman/NY Times tweet: "Trump initially rebuffed and resisted requests to mobilize the National Guard, according to a person with knowledge of the vents. It required intervention from White House officials to get it done, according to the person with knowledge of the events."

So they were mobilized. The DC Mayor ordered it done. I guess that, unlike states, the Mayor of DC has to get the approval of the president first? Governors can do this unilaterally since they are regulated by states, i.e., state militias. In any case, they were called up.

But where were they? Here's a good question: "What the hell was law enforcement on Capitol Hill thinking by not having secured the Capitol today?” former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta asked on CNBC, calling it one of his great disappointments." I'll say.

And the Capitol Police - as opposed to the DC police (I used to live in Northern Virginia and went to DC all of the time) - was AWOL. There are 2200+ Capitol Police officers.

I think you're making more of this than it appears. This was a bunch of rabble, people with perceived grievances who were "gas lighted" by Trump. There was no chance of them overturning the government. Look at them! Disgraceful and pathetic.

The responsibility for this disgrace is due to Trump formost. And these horrible followers. But we do have to ask about the security. After 9/11 all sorts of measures were taken to prevent attacks on the Capitol. What happened here?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 04:06:07 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2021, 06:04:54 PM »
From "Allahpundit" at the conservative website "Hotair":
 
"An intolerable reality, that Biden has won and that Republicans are more loyal to America’s civic traditions than to Trump, has finally intruded into a paranoid, conspiratorial, pathologically narcissistic mind. No one knows how he might lash out as he struggles to cope with that reality. That is to say, the 25th Amendment talk isn’t just a backdoor coup option in this case. It’s defensible on the merits. The president may be honestly psychologically “incapacitated” to a degree that he’s unable to carry out his duties."

Either a "hard" 25th Amendment - a formal statement by his Cabinet that he can no longer perform the duties of the offices - or a "soft" one has to be carried out.  The "soft" one is that his people simply ignore his orders and listen to Pence. Meanwhile, let him stew in his realization that it's over. He'll be unable to perform so others step in. This depression may not last for two weeks; when he comes out of it what will happen?


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2021, 06:32:19 PM »
Joe: But your account isn't accurate. The White House did authorize the callup of the National Guard. And the DC Mayor called them up per that story I linked to. WH, according to the account, had to intervene to get Trump to issue the order to do so. So it did happen.

From the Haberman/NY Times tweet: "Trump initially rebuffed and resisted requests to mobilize the National Guard, according to a person with knowledge of the vents. It required intervention from White House officials to get it done, according to the person with knowledge of the events."

So they were mobilized. The DC Mayor ordered it done. I guess that, unlike states, the Mayor of DC has to get the approval of the president first? Governors can do this unilaterally since they are regulated by states, i.e., state militias. In any case, they were called up.

But where were they? Here's a good question: "What the hell was law enforcement on Capitol Hill thinking by not having secured the Capitol today?” former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta asked on CNBC, calling it one of his great disappointments." I'll say.

And the Capitol Police - as opposed to the DC police (I used to live in Northern Virginia and went to DC all of the time) - was AWOL. There are 2200+ Capitol Police officers.

I think you're making more of this than it appears. This was a bunch of rabble, people with perceived grievances who were "gas lighted" by Trump. There was no chance of them overturning the government. Look at them! Disgraceful and pathetic.

The responsibility for this disgrace is due to Trump formost. And these horrible followers. But we do have to ask about the security. After 9/11 all sorts of measures were taken to prevent attacks on the Capitol. What happened here?

No. I got it right. During the days leading up to the riot, during that morning, during the first hour or two of the storming of the Capitol, Trump had control of the National Guard. That is why they were not deployed, in force, guarding the steps of the Capitol, like they were last summer during the Black Lives Matter peaceful protest.

Yes, after Trump delayed for over an hour, with his aides imploring him to release them to the control of the mayor, and it was clear from the TV coverage which he was studying intently, that the Senators and Congressmen had escaped the rioters and were now beyond their reach, he gave up and released the National Guard to the control of the mayor.

Yes, eventually, eventually, the mayor got control of the National Guard. But not during the hours of the greatest peril to our intuitions. During those hours, Trump had control, at least enough control to keep them away from the Capitol.

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2021, 06:40:16 PM »

From "Allahpundit" at the conservative website "Hotair":
 
"An intolerable reality, that Biden has won and that Republicans are more loyal to America’s civic traditions than to Trump, has finally intruded into a paranoid, conspiratorial, pathologically narcissistic mind. No one knows how he might lash out as he struggles to cope with that reality. That is to say, the 25th Amendment talk isn’t just a backdoor coup option in this case. It’s defensible on the merits. The president may be honestly psychologically “incapacitated” to a degree that he’s unable to carry out his duties."

Either a "hard" 25th Amendment - a formal statement by his Cabinet that he can no longer perform the duties of the offices - or a "soft" one has to be carried out.  The "soft" one is that his people simply ignore his orders and listen to Pence. Meanwhile, let him stew in his realization that it's over. He'll be unable to perform so others step in. This depression may not last for two weeks; when he comes out of it what will happen?

Now that I have had a little time to think about it, I guess the “soft” option is the best. I don’t care if it’s against the rules. Everyone has to understand that they take the orders from Pence. The nuclear “football” needs to accompany Pence. Every diplomat in the world has to inform every government in the world that during the next two weeks, Pence is firmly in charge.

Trump needs to be isolated in the White House until the early hours of January 20. Like a mentally sick man. No access to Twitter, or Facebook or the internet. No speaking appearances of TV.

This should prevent a coordinated assault by his devoted followers.

P. S. It would also help if the Senators and Congressmen realized that we are in a new era. The voting in Georgia is a strong indication that the Trump era is over. Trump has lost a fraction of his supporters. Not a large fraction, but enough. Just losing a few percent of the people who would vote for him or for the people he endorses is very bad. If I was a politician, I wouldn’t want his endorsement, not for the General Election. And probably not for the primary either because the voters will remember in the following November. I think my best chance would be to ask Trump to stay out of it and hope that doesn’t make him mad.

Just glancing at the ceremonies last night, it appears that maybe the realization is settling in. There were early objections to the accepting, with a couple of hours of debate, for many of the states, like Arizona and Pennsylvania. But by the time they got to Wisconsin, no Senator supported the objection. Not even Ted Cruz. It may be that he is starting to wise up.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 06:48:40 PM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2021, 07:05:39 PM »
Well, I wonder what’s on the agenda for today. Who’s up for a “protest march” on the Supreme Court? To try to “encourage” the justices to issue an emergency ruling. It is the “People’s Court” after all, isn’t it?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 07:06:38 PM by Joe Elliott »

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2021, 07:55:49 PM »

Failures from yesterday.

1.   The Press
Just like 2000, the press missed the biggest story. The great question was “Does Florida Law allow a recounting of all the undervotes and all the overvotes in all the counties? And they could all be counted using uniform standards. The press did not investigate this. Instead, they took the word of Republican and Democratic spokesmen who basically said that Florida law was too messed up. This opened the door for Gore to request a biased partial manual recount of just four large counties, that contained 37.5 % of all the Gore votes but only 25% of the Bush votes. And the biased Florida State Supreme Court ordered such a biased recount, going against both Florida and Federal law. By the time we found out that the courts of Florida could order a fair recount of all the counties, it was too late, with just 4 days form the safe harbor date, and the court overseeing the recount known to be biased.

In 2020, one the great question was, with Trump openly telling his followers so “Stand down and stand by”, make sure you are there on January 6 in Washington D. C. “Be there . . . Be wild”, was:

Who has control of the National Guard in Washington D. C.?

As I posted back in December, I assumed that this was not a problem because no one was reporting a problem. I thought the commander of the men, or the mayor, or someone other than Trump, had command. It appears they did not. It was Trump who had effective control, at least as far as preventing them from guarding the Capitol.

Had this story been reported, I would have been alarmed, and various other people should have been alarmed. Instead, with this strike at American being telegraphed for weeks, everyone was caught by surprise.

2.   The Mayor of Washington D. C.

It is not just the press that dropped the ball. The mayor of Washington D. C. should have checked to see if she had control of the National Guard in the district. And if not, put out the alarm. Make pleas with the Governors of Virginia and Maryland to have their National Guard deployed in Washington D. C., in force, guarding the Capitol that morning. Trump is telegraphing this punch. This fact should rule over all other considerations, like “It would look bad”.

Yes, the mayor did well after the Capitol was assaulted. But early action would have been a lot more effective.

3.   Others

And there may be others. Did the commander of the National Guard in the district inform his superiors that he was handcuffed from deploying his men as he saw fit?

Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Assault on the Capitol
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2021, 08:05:01 PM »

Being Overly Concerned with “Image”

On November 24, 1963, the Dallas Police informed the press of when they were going to transfer Oswald out of the jail, and vulnerable to attack. This allowed a big crowd of reporters, dressed in suits and ties, to crowd in around Oswald, allowing Ruby, similarly dressed to make a close approach to Oswald. Why? Because the press told them, with Oswald’s black eye, if the police didn’t show that they were treating him correctly.

To avoid a minor bad look they ended up with a major bad look.


Similarly, on January 6, 2020, with Trump telegraphing this assault for weeks, the authorities did not move heaven and earth to insure there was a large National Guard presence, in uniform, intimidating, in mass, armed, and guarding all approaches to the Capitol. Like we saw last summer during the Black Lives Matters peaceful protest. Because it would “look bad”.

Again, to avoid a minor bad look they ended up with a major bad look. Again, with an assault telegraphed for weeks, this should not have been any kind of a consideration.

So, we end up with way too few Capitol police, largely not in armor, armed only with handguns, and ordered to not do anything to escalate the situation.

Image is not everything.

 

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