Author Topic: Lyndon Johnson for 2024  (Read 1028 times)

Online Jon Banks

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2021, 08:53:06 PM »
He certainly lied repeatedly to the public about the war, about our progress there. H.R. McMaster's book on Vietnam, "Dereliction of Duty", is pretty devastating in its indictment of LBJ and McNamara for their dishonesty. He argued that LBJ was worried more about the political ramifications of the war then about the war itself; that a withdrawal would hurt him politically and set back his "Great Society" programs.

Whether that constitutes being a "sociopath" can be debated I guess.

As to civil rights: I think he was sincere about the issue, that it was a moral question for him as well as a political one. The '64 act alone was sufficient. But he followed that up with another act in 1968, a voting rights act and a fair housing act. Caro documented his experiences helping poor Mexicans and how that did affect him. He was a complex person; one that, as Caro showed, could be enormously cruel and mean and nasty but also who had real empathy to poor and black Americans.

I don't know if it was genuine empathy. Like most politicians (and unlike Trump apparently), Johnson could probably fake empathy well enough to hid his true feelings about Blacks and other minorities. 

LBJ is a complex figure for those reasons. My point is that we shouldn't overlook the bad things about LBJ's character just because he did some good things. He was no saint. He was as corrupt as Richard Nixon if not more.

I understand that Caro has tried (and succeeded to some extent) to rescue Johnson's Presidential legacy. I agree that Johnsn should get more credit for Civil Rights and his anti-Poverty agenda.

I haven't seen any convincing evidence that Johnson was part of a conspiracy to kill JFK. But I wouldn't want him to be President today.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2021, 09:09:45 PM »
Many politicians have some degree of sociopathy. It's very likely that Johnson was a sociopath.

People who crave power and are willing to lie, cheat, and steal to get it are often sociopaths.
One of the qualities of a sociopath, if not the main one, is an absence of a conscience. I don't think a person who did so much for black Americans would have no conscience at all. There was something in the plight of black people that I think affected him.

Did he do it only for his legacy? To gain praise? Nothing more?

To be sure, those who argue otherwise have a powerful argument. He could be, as Caro documents, just an appallingly nasty person. To Bird, to his friends, to the WH staff. Ugh, what a mean person.

Online Jon Banks

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2021, 09:31:32 PM »
One of the qualities of a sociopath, if not the main one, is an absence of a conscience. I don't think a person who did so much for black Americans would have no conscience at all. There was something in the plight of black people that I think affected him.

Johnson wasn't always a supporter of Civil Rights. He took a long time to come around on that issue.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2014/apr/14/barack-obama/lyndon-johnson-opposed-every-civil-rights-proposal/


I'm not sure what changed his mind but even while serving in the White House and dealing with Civil Rights issues, he was cruel and overtly racist towards Black people.

He may not have been a psychopath (the most extreme form of sociopathy) but he did in fact have several of the main characteristics of sociopathy as many successful politicians do.

Also, you seem to be missing the point that sociopaths can be charming and show empathy when they need to in order to get what they want.


Did he do it only for his legacy? To gain praise? Nothing more?

To be sure, those who argue otherwise have a powerful argument. He could be, as Caro documents, just an appallingly nasty person. To Bird, to his friends, to the WH staff. Ugh, what a mean person.

Again, I think he was a brilliant politician and likely viewed the Great Society and Civil Rights as legacy projects that would put him among the greatest Presidents in history. FDR and the New Deal were still extremely popular in LBJ's time. Even many Republicans still supported the New Deal in the early-60s.

LBJ was an exceptionally skilled politician who also displayed bad character towards people who worked with him and had questionable ethics...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 09:34:00 PM by Jon Banks »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2021, 11:55:53 PM »
Not true.  :D


...the talk turned to President Kennedy, and [Lyndon B.] Johnson expressed his belief that the assassination in Dallas had been part of a conspiracy. “I never believed that Oswald acted alone, although I can accept that he pulled the trigger.” Johnson said that when he had taken office he found that “we had been operating a damned Murder Inc. in the Caribbean.” A year or so before Kennedy’s death a CIA-backed assassination team had been picked up in Havana. Johnson speculated that Dallas had been a retaliation for this thwarted attempt, although he couldn’t prove it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/08/lbj-oswald-wasnt-alone/309486/

Johnson said he never believed Oswald acted alone. Therefore, he was aware of facts that made him suspect there was a conspiracy yet he promoted the Warren Report for political reasons, to avoid a potential World War, and to give Americans closure.

I don't see how anyone today can still doubt that the US government chose to bury rather than fully investigate the conspiratorial leads in JFK's assassination. Johnson was part of that coverup.

You folks praising LBJ sound so naïve. He was a great politician but not a saint or an exceptional humanitarian...



Johnson was an overt racist and he had a huge ego like President Trump.

Even as president, Johnson's interpersonal relationships with blacks were marred by his prejudice. As longtime Jet correspondent Simeon Booker wrote in his memoir "Shocks the Conscience", early in his presidency, Johnson once lectured Booker after he authored a critical article for Jet Magazine, telling Booker he should "thank" Johnson for all he'd done for black people. In "Flawed Giant", Johnson biographer Robert Dallek writes that Johnson explained his decision to nominate Thurgood Marshall to the Supreme Court rather than a less famous black judge by saying, "when I appoint a nigger to the bench, I want everybody to know he's a nigger."

https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/lyndon-johnson-civil-rights-racism-msna305591


The fact that he accomplished things that JFK wanted to do but wasn't able to accomplish fed his ego and helped establish his Presidential legacy. He at least knew he was on the right side of history.

And LBJ's legacy would be on the level of FDR's if it wasn't marred by the Vietnam war.

He's among the most successful Presidents of the 20th Century but Vietnam is what gets remembered by Americans more than the Great Society...

I don't see how anyone today can still doubt that the US government chose to bury rather than fully investigate the conspiratorial leads in JFK's assassination. Johnson was part of that coverup.

You folks praising LBJ sound so naïve. He was a great politician but not a saint or an exceptional humanitarian...


Offline Jim Brunsman

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2021, 04:05:58 AM »
  According to those closest to LBJ, including Bobby Baker, LBJ was responsible for at least 8 murders, including JFK and his own sister.  Multiple authors have reported the same things. Don't forget that the Russians investigated the assassination for nearly two years and concluded that LBJ was the prime suspect. Johnson's behavior on 11/22/63 is worth a book by itself. Why did LBJ harass JFK to insist his arch enemy Yarborough ride in the president's car for the Dallas motorcade instead of his best friend Connnally? Is this a possible indication of foreknowledge?
   The cover up seems to have begun very quickly. LBJ commandeered Air Force 1 immediately and insisted on being sworn in on the plane, even though he was already president. I don't know how much he influenced the autopsy, but there are so many outrageous reports about what happened at Bethesda, the mind boggles. Also, it seems rather suspicious that Johnson called Parkland Hospital trying to get a death bed confession from the attending surgeons trying to save LHO.
  Johnson was facing prosecution and was likely to be dumped from the '64 ticket. His political career depended upon JFK's removal. Johnson certainly did everything he could to cover up the conspiracy that killed JFK. His pal Hoover is also one of the most evil characters in American history and his cover up for the real killers should be clearly illustrated for the history books. He was the perfect accomplice to cover up the assassination. Fortunately, we are getting more answers due to the diligence of independent researchers. Who had more to gain from JFK's death than LBJ?

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2021, 06:22:33 AM »
For Roosevelt and Johnson to be guilty of these conspiracies, they would both have to be psychic.
Professing wisdom but lacking same.
Roosevelt was warned about their aggressive ambition but doubted that the Japanese had the power or courage to take on the United States.
Johnson yielded entirely to the military industrial big shots who planned and backed his installment.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2021, 12:32:36 PM »
  According to those closest to LBJ, including Bobby Baker, LBJ was responsible for at least 8 murders, including JFK and his own sister.  Multiple authors have reported the same things. Don't forget that the Russians investigated the assassination for nearly two years and concluded that LBJ was the prime suspect. Johnson's behavior on 11/22/63 is worth a book by itself. Why did LBJ harass JFK to insist his arch enemy Yarborough ride in the president's car for the Dallas motorcade instead of his best friend Connnally? Is this a possible indication of foreknowledge?
   The cover up seems to have begun very quickly. LBJ commandeered Air Force 1 immediately and insisted on being sworn in on the plane, even though he was already president. I don't know how much he influenced the autopsy, but there are so many outrageous reports about what happened at Bethesda, the mind boggles. Also, it seems rather suspicious that Johnson called Parkland Hospital trying to get a death bed confession from the attending surgeons trying to save LHO.
  Johnson was facing prosecution and was likely to be dumped from the '64 ticket. His political career depended upon JFK's removal. Johnson certainly did everything he could to cover up the conspiracy that killed JFK. His pal Hoover is also one of the most evil characters in American history and his cover up for the real killers should be clearly illustrated for the history books. He was the perfect accomplice to cover up the assassination. Fortunately, we are getting more answers due to the diligence of independent researchers. Who had more to gain from JFK's death than LBJ?


Who had more to gain from JFK's death than LBJ?


Fidel Castro (LHO’s hero)!

Online Jon Banks

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2021, 03:03:59 PM »

Who had more to gain from JFK's death than LBJ?


Fidel Castro (LHO’s hero)!

How could Fidel have predicted that the US wouldn't invade Cuba in response to Kennedy's assassination? Makes no sense given the conventional wisdom of the time. 

Johnson admitted that he suspected Russian or Cuban involvement but he clearly wanted to avoid a costly war with the Soviets and wisely didn't escalate tensions despite his suspicions.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2021, 04:27:02 PM »
How could Fidel have predicted that the US wouldn't invade Cuba in response to Kennedy's assassination? Makes no sense given the conventional wisdom of the time. 

Johnson admitted that he suspected Russian or Cuban involvement but he clearly wanted to avoid a costly war with the Soviets and wisely didn't escalate tensions despite his suspicions.


How could Fidel have predicted that the US wouldn't invade Cuba in response to Kennedy's assassination? Makes no sense given the conventional wisdom of the time. 

There hasn’t been credible evidence that Castro was behind the assassination. However there is some evidence that he knew ahead of time that there was going to be an attempt. All he needed to do was stay silent instead of notifying the U.S. ahead of time. Additionally, Castro was known for taking risky chances and for other assassinations and attempted assassinations. This type of thing was right up his alley, so to speak.
 
I believe that Fidel Castro was smart enough to do two things. Number one, he made it appear that he was unaware of the assassination attempt by having the reporters with him at that time. Number two, he supported the disinformation efforts by the Soviets to suggest that other Americans were responsible for a conspiracy. Castro was smart enough to know that, without ample evidence of Cuban involvement, the United States was unlikely to invade his country. And I believe that he made sure that very soon after the assassination the few people who knew very much about the circumstances were recalled back to Cuba from Mexico City.


Johnson admitted that he suspected Russian or Cuban involvement but he clearly wanted to avoid a costly war with the Soviets and wisely didn't escalate tensions despite his suspicions.

Exactly! Suspicions are not enough to justify starting a war. He needed convincing evidence for that. If such evidence had been developed and the public made aware of it, I believe that we would probably have invaded Cuba due to public pressure, if nothing else.

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Lyndon Johnson for 2024
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2021, 04:43:10 PM »
If you want to listen to a real sociopath in action just listen to Trump's phone call/conversation with the Georgia Secretary of State. Unbelievable. Trump made, reportedly, 18 calls before to try and talk to him. This was #19.

Trump has no conscience at all, he hasn't the slightest idea of the concept of the rule of law, of anything other than what is in his own interest. Everything is a transaction to benefit him. That's just an amazing call. He is totally oblivious to any idea of the law, of the Constitution, of what public officials are sworn to uphold.

"Just change those votes, Mr. Secretary. Do it as a good Republican. Forget about anything else." (yes, this is paraphrasing; he didn't actually say these words)

Added: Although in his defense, Trump actually does believe - he does - that the election was stolen, that the vote in Georgia was rigged against him. So his complaint may be honest and sincere; but how he wants the Secretary of State to handle this is simply reckless and dangerous. Illegal? Probably not and characterizing it, as Carl Bernstein did, as "worse than Watergate" is silly; asking the Secretary to look into the matter is not a crime. But certainly it's not what a President should be doing. We have a legal process for candidates to use. That's how we decide such matters.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 09:25:47 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

 

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