Author Topic: The Shot That Missed  (Read 2702 times)

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2021, 03:15:00 AM »
Read it again. He most certainly does not.

He most certainly does.   Drain: "He had one cartridge in the chamber ready, so he only had two more to put in to fire"


You chose to quote Drain. How do you read it? One empty shell CE 543 on the floor prior to LHO preparing to fire, followed by two shots, one unfired cartridge by Fritz still in the chamber of LHO's rifle. Seems pretty straight forward.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2021, 03:16:39 AM »
What are you talking about?
Are you saying the people in the limo were the only ones who knew the limo was being fired on?
Are you saying people outside the limo didn't see JFK being shot?
Are you saying more than 150 witnesses who heard 3 shots only were wrong?

Once again, do you place more value on the "ear" witnesses standing in an echo chamber over the eyewitnesses who could see and also hear what had happened? It appears you do.

Are you saying the people unable to see what was happening in the limo knew more than the people who were in the limo?
Are you saying people outside the limo didn't know JFK had been shot because the could see it as well as hear it?
Are you saying more than 150 witnesses who heard  noises knew more than the people who actually witnessed the shooting?

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2021, 03:28:27 AM »
Once again, do you place more value on the "ear" witnesses standing in an echo chamber over the eyewitnesses who could see and also hear what had happened? It appears you do.
I don't know what you're saying here.
Nobody was stood in an echo chamber.
All I'm saying is that the vast majority of witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard three shots. That's a fact. Why is that somehow discounted if they didn't actually see the bullets hit the target?

Quote
Are you saying the people unable to see what was happening in the limo knew more than the people who were in the limo?

No. That's a ridiculous thing to ask

Quote
Are you saying people outside the limo didn't know JFK had been shot because the could see it as well as hear it?

What??

Quote
Are you saying more than 150 witnesses who heard  noises knew more than the people who actually witnessed the shooting?

Many of the people who heard the 'noises' also witnessed the shooting. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
The fact so many people heard three shots can lead us to conclude three audible shots were fired. That's it. What is it you think I'm saying?

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2021, 03:32:40 AM »
He most certainly does.   Drain: "He had one cartridge in the chamber ready, so he only had two more to put in to fire"


You chose to quote Drain. How do you read it? One empty shell CE 543 on the floor prior to LHO preparing to fire, followed by two shots, one unfired cartridge by Fritz still in the chamber of LHO's rifle. Seems pretty straight forward.


Drain goes on to describe what they believe happened with three separate shots. Therefore, he didn’t indicate that CE 543 was already empty as you contend, quite  the opposite.

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2021, 05:43:19 AM »
I don't know what you're saying here.
Nobody was stood in an echo chamber.
All I'm saying is that the vast majority of witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard three shots. That's a fact. Why is that somehow discounted if they didn't actually see the bullets hit the target?

No. That's a ridiculous thing to ask

What??

Many of the people who heard the 'noises' also witnessed the shooting. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
The fact so many people heard three shots can lead us to conclude three audible shots were fired. That's it. What is it you think I'm saying?


 Is this statement no longer true?

O"Meara: The overwhelming majority of "ear-witnesses" heard three shots only.
That is a fact.


Another fact, the majority of the eyewitnesses stated there was only two shots, second shot head shot, etc.

Once again,  do you think the witnesses who could only hear  know more about the assassination than the people who could see and hear. 

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2021, 05:45:49 AM »

Drain goes on to describe what they believe happened with three separate shots. Therefore, he didn’t indicate that CE 543 was already empty as you contend, quite  the opposite.

There were three shells discovered on the floor and one unfired cartridge found in the rifle. That is a total of four. Drain states there was only three live cartridges total in his statement. That is all. Whatever point you are trying to make maybe you need a different witness. Drain's statement is contradictory to what you are stating.

Drain is trying to convey there was only two shots--- believe him

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2021, 06:53:15 AM »
Most of the witnesses were interviewed long after the 3 shot narrative was firmly planted in the public psyche.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2021, 12:44:45 PM »
There were three shells discovered on the floor and one unfired cartridge found in the rifle. That is a total of four. Drain states there was only three live cartridges total in his statement. That is all. Whatever point you are trying to make maybe you need a different witness. Drain's statement is contradictory to what you are stating.

Drain is trying to convey there was only two shots--- believe him


Drain states there was only three live cartridges total in his statement. That is all.


Drain doesn’t state any such thing. He is conveying that the bolt action only needed to be cycled twice to fire three shots. Here is his statement again:



Here’s what FBI agent Vince Drain had to say about it in “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed:


Of course, time dims your memory a bit, but as I understand it, Oswald was sitting there looking through the scope with the target moving away at 10–12 M.P.H. It was a very easy target. He had one cartridge in the chamber ready, so he only had two more to put in to fire. The best we could tell when we reenacted it, and we went over this thing from all angles with the finest ballistics’ experts in the country, the first shot went wild which was found down close to a water outlet in the curb. The second shot hit the President in the fatty part of the neck and went through completely hitting Connally in the rib cage driving the bone ahead of it, came out, and part of it hit him in the wrist. The third shot is what caught the President in the back of the head. Now that’s the best that all the scientific people could come up with that happened.

I highlighted the sentence you are referring to.

1. If the shell in the chamber was empty (as you contend), then it wouldn’t be ready. Now would it?

2. Drain goes on to describe what happened to three different bullets, not just two.

3. Drain simply doesn’t mention the fourth cartridge (found in the rifle after the shooting). He is discussing the shots. Not the condition of the rifle when it was found afterwards.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 12:45:54 PM by Charles Collins »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2021, 12:48:17 PM »

 Is this statement no longer true?

O"Meara: The overwhelming majority of "ear-witnesses" heard three shots only.
That is a fact.


Another fact, the majority of the eyewitnesses stated there was only two shots, second shot head shot, etc.

Once again,  do you think the witnesses who could only hear  know more about the assassination than the people who could see and hear.

The fact I quoted is from the work of Pat Speer. Speer has done a comprehensive study of the witness statements concerning the assassination, specifically regarding the shots, and concludes:

"...we’ve looked at the words of 294 witnesses to see if they add up to something. Of this 294, 89 failed to tell us much that would indicate when and how the shots were fired. Of the remaining 205, 102 made statements suggesting there were three shots fired, with the first shot being heard between Z-190 and Z-224 and the last 2 shots being heard in rapid succession after a short pause. Another 57 made statements suggesting that the first shot was heard between Z-190 and Z-224, but made no statements indicating the last two shots were bunched together. Another 13 heard the last two shots fired closely together, and yet another could only swear to hearing two shots, but thought there may have been a third, which was wholly consistent with the last two being fired closely together. This means that 173 of the 205 witnesses described the shots in a relatively consistent manner. "


!60 of the 205 witnesses who reported something related to the shots, reported there was three shots.
When you say:

"Another fact, the majority of the eyewitnesses stated there was only two shots, second shot head shot, etc."

Where are you getting this 'fact' from?
Are you just making this up?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 12:50:55 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The Shot That Missed
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2021, 03:24:08 PM »

Drain states there was only three live cartridges total in his statement. That is all.


Drain doesn’t state any such thing. He is conveying that the bolt action only needed to be cycled twice to fire three shots. Here is his statement again:



I highlighted the sentence you are referring to.

1. If the shell in the chamber was empty (as you contend), then it wouldn’t be ready. Now would it?

2. Drain goes on to describe what happened to three different bullets, not just two.

3. Drain simply doesn’t mention the fourth cartridge (found in the rifle after the shooting). He is discussing the shots. Not the condition of the rifle when it was found afterwards.

Drain does not support whatever point you are trying to make. He is trying to tell you there was only two shots. If you can read there is more than three live cartridges being discussed it is only because you want to. Good luck with it.

 

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