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Author Topic: Touring the Tippit Scene  (Read 38418 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #232 on: January 07, 2021, 08:35:25 PM »
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JFK conspiracy believers are just like the Trump conspiracy believers, those who say the election was stolen.

"Something" happened to the voting machines, "something" happened to the ballots, "something" happened to Redlich...."something" "something" "something".....

What a silly analogy.  Nobody's arguing that "something" happened to Redlich.

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #232 on: January 07, 2021, 08:35:25 PM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #233 on: January 07, 2021, 08:42:29 PM »
Another valuable contribution.  What "opinion" do you believe is contained in my post?  That Hoover kept files on presidents including JFK?  Is that my opinion?  That JFK had extramarital affairs, used a laundry list of drugs while president, and lied about his serious medical conditions while running for president.  Is that my opinion or documented fact?  Could all of those have been used to blackmail him?  That seems obvious.  So where are these pretentious "opinions"?

Could, could, could.

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  You seem to have a very strange notion of what constitutes an opinion or speculation.  Any fact or logical inference that can be drawn that lends itself to Oswald's guilt appears to be an "opinion" in your contrarian mind.

So you don't consider "inferences" to be "opinions"?  That explains a lot.

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  What is truly hilarious is that after applying this impossible contrarian standard of proof to any fact that lends itself to Oswald's guilt,

As if you've ever offered up any "fact that lends itself to Oswald's guilt" (whatever that means).
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 08:43:16 PM by John Iacoletti »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #234 on: January 08, 2021, 12:18:54 AM »
You seem to have a very strange notion of what constitutes an opinion or speculation.  Any fact or logical inference that can be drawn that lends itself to Oswald's guilt appears to be an "opinion" in your contrarian mind.

What you call a "logical inference" is in fact nothing more than an opinion.

What is truly hilarious is that after applying this impossible contrarian standard of proof to any fact that lends itself to Oswald's guilt, by implication, any validity to your contrarian doubts lends itself to some wildly implausible and entirely baseless alternative that must have happened to explain away the evidence against Oswald that you are disputing.

You are so full of it. It would be funny if it wasn't so stupid. The case against Oswald, and thus Oswald's guilt, need to be proven by people like you. It's "innocent until proven guilty" not "guilty because Richard Smith thinks he is". When you present a weak and unpersuasive narrative based largely on pure speculation, that you can not even back up with conclusive evidence, having doubts about the veracity and validity of that narrative isn't being contrarian.

You seem to call anybody who does not instantly agree with your opinion a contrarian, much like a prosecutor who fails to persuade a jury complains to a judge that the jury is being contrarian. It's pathetic.

Present a better case, based on actual facts rather than your typical strawman arguments and conjecture, and I'll gladly accept Oswald's guilt, but don't try to put blame on me for your own incompetence and failure to present a coherent case.

So many contrarian words.  And you didn't even address the point.  Do you have an example of my using an "opinion" or not?  Did Hoover keep records on people including the presidents?  Is that an opinion?  Did JFK have affairs, use drugs and lie about his medical condition?  Opinion?  Could those have been used to blackmail him?  Opinion?

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #234 on: January 08, 2021, 12:18:54 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #235 on: January 08, 2021, 01:22:31 AM »
So many contrarian words.  And you didn't even address the point.  Do you have an example of my using an "opinion" or not?  Did Hoover keep records on people including the presidents?  Is that an opinion?  Did JFK have affairs, use drugs and lie about his medical condition?  Opinion?  Could those have been used to blackmail him?  Opinion?

All of it is opinion, because that's all you can have, unless of course you have first hand knowledge about any of it. There are all sorts of people and publications that make all sorts of claims. You decide which ones you want to believe and they become your opinion. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Have you seen the records Hoover allegedly kept on people, including Presidents? No, of course you haven't
Were you present when JFK had affairs, used drugs and lied about his medical condition? Do you even know first hand what medical condition he had? No, of course not
And what makes you think, whatever it is you believe there was, could have been used to blackmail JFK, except of course your opinion.

So many contrarian words.


You seem to call anybody who does not instantly agree with your opinion a contrarian, much like a prosecutor who fails to persuade a jury complains to a judge that the jury is being contrarian. It's pathetic.


« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 12:02:31 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #236 on: January 09, 2021, 04:32:15 PM »
All of it is opinion, because that's all you can have, unless of course you have first hand knowledge about any of it. There are all sorts of people and publications that make all sorts of claim. You decide which ones you want to believe and they become your opinion. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Have you seen the records Hoover allegedly kept on people, including Presidents? No, of course you haven't
Were you present what JFK had affairs, used drugs and lied about his medical condition? Do you even know first hand what medical condition he had? No, of course not
And what makes you think, whatever it is you believe there was, could have been used to blackmail JFK, except of course your opinion.

So many contrarian words.

So you are contending that it is my opinion because I wasn't there to witness these events?  What better example of the contrarian standard of proof.  We actually need a time machine to prove any fact in human history.  It is well documented that Hoover kept files on many individuals including presidents, that JFK had affairs and used many drugs for his serious medical conditions and lied about those medical conditions while running for president.  There is zero doubt of these fact. 

NY Times:
The first thorough examination of President John F. Kennedy's medical records, conducted by an independent presidential historian with a medical consultant, has found that Kennedy suffered from more ailments, was in far greater pain and was taking many more medications than the public knew at the time or biographers have since described.

As president, he was famous for having a bad back, and since his death, biographers have pieced together details of other illnesses, including persistent digestive problems and Addison's disease, a life-threatening lack of adrenal function.

But newly disclosed medical files covering the last eight years of Kennedy's life, including X-rays and prescription records, show that he took painkillers, antianxiety agents, stimulants and sleeping pills, as well as hormones to keep him alive, with extra doses in times of stress.

At times the president took as many as eight medications a day, says the historian, Robert Dallek. A committee of three longtime Kennedy family associates, who for decades refused all requests to look at the records, granted Mr. Dallek's, in part because of his ''tremendous reputation,'' said one of them, Theodore C. Sorensen, who was the president's special counsel.

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #236 on: January 09, 2021, 04:32:15 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #237 on: January 09, 2021, 06:12:54 PM »
So you are contending that it is my opinion because I wasn't there to witness these events?  What better example of the contrarian standard of proof.  We actually need a time machine to prove any fact in human history.  It is well documented that Hoover kept files on many individuals including presidents, that JFK had affairs and used many drugs for his serious medical conditions and lied about those medical conditions while running for president.  There is zero doubt of these fact. 

NY Times:
The first thorough examination of President John F. Kennedy's medical records, conducted by an independent presidential historian with a medical consultant, has found that Kennedy suffered from more ailments, was in far greater pain and was taking many more medications than the public knew at the time or biographers have since described.

As president, he was famous for having a bad back, and since his death, biographers have pieced together details of other illnesses, including persistent digestive problems and Addison's disease, a life-threatening lack of adrenal function.

But newly disclosed medical files covering the last eight years of Kennedy's life, including X-rays and prescription records, show that he took painkillers, antianxiety agents, stimulants and sleeping pills, as well as hormones to keep him alive, with extra doses in times of stress.

At times the president took as many as eight medications a day, says the historian, Robert Dallek. A committee of three longtime Kennedy family associates, who for decades refused all requests to look at the records, granted Mr. Dallek's, in part because of his ''tremendous reputation,'' said one of them, Theodore C. Sorensen, who was the president's special counsel.

So you are contending that it is my opinion because I wasn't there to witness these events? 

Yes. Absolutely. When you were not there to witness something what else but an opinion can it possibly be? You may rely on sources that you deem to be credible, and match your mind set, but that doesn't elevate your opinion to a fact.

We actually need a time machine to prove any fact in human history. 

No we don't. All somebody like you needs to do is accept that your opinion simply isn't automatically a fact.

It is well documented that Hoover kept files on many individuals including presidents, that JFK had affairs and used many drugs for his serious medical conditions and lied about those medical conditions while running for president. There is zero doubt of these fact. 

And all that may well be true, but even if it is, you believing it is merely an opinion, regardless of whether you believe there is zero doubt. Your decision to accept something as fact and dismiss something else as false is your decision, which means it's a reflection of your opinion.

Quote
NY Times:
The first thorough examination of President John F. Kennedy's medical records, conducted by an independent presidential historian with a medical consultant, has found that Kennedy suffered from more ailments, was in far greater pain and was taking many more medications than the public knew at the time or biographers have since described.

As president, he was famous for having a bad back, and since his death, biographers have pieced together details of other illnesses, including persistent digestive problems and Addison's disease, a life-threatening lack of adrenal function.

But newly disclosed medical files covering the last eight years of Kennedy's life, including X-rays and prescription records, show that he took painkillers, antianxiety agents, stimulants and sleeping pills, as well as hormones to keep him alive, with extra doses in times of stress.

At times the president took as many as eight medications a day, says the historian, Robert Dallek. A committee of three longtime Kennedy family associates, who for decades refused all requests to look at the records, granted Mr. Dallek's, in part because of his ''tremendous reputation,'' said one of them, Theodore C. Sorensen, who was the president's special counsel.

Again, and this may be difficult for you to follow or understand, this may all very well be true, but you decided to believe the publication by the NYT about the opinions of a historian, which makes it your opinion that Dallek was correct and that the NYT reported it correctly.

The hypocrisy is astounding because whenever anybody says anything that does not compute with your opinions about the Kennedy case you instantly dismiss it, based up what exactly........ your opinion, perhaps?

In other words, you have a predetermined mind set and randomly select what you want to believe to be fact based upon your own opinion and nothing else!

This is the main problem you and your ilk have with the Kennedy case. You just believe, for whatever "logical" reasons, that what the WC told you is true and that the evidence is authentic. So, your belief has become your opinion. The biggest problem with that of course is that you lack the ability to defend your opinion when it comes to details of the case. Every time you are challenged, you instantly dismiss everything, start throwing strawman around and insult people. What you never ever do is reply in detail to a challenge. Having an opinion is fine, but presenting it as fact, just because you believe it, is just pathetic.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 12:07:09 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Richard Smith

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #238 on: January 10, 2021, 02:35:06 AM »
So you are contending that it is my opinion because I wasn't there to witness these events? 

Yes. Absolutely. When you were not there to witness something what else but an opinion can it possibly be? You may rely on sources that you deem to be credible, and match your mind set, but that doesn't elevate your opinion to a fact.



Wow.  So every event in history that occurred in which I was not present is simply my "opinion" no matter how well documented?  There are no words.   Maybe the single dumbest post in the history of this forum or perhaps the entire Internet.  Astounding.

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #238 on: January 10, 2021, 02:35:06 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Touring the Tippit Scene
« Reply #239 on: January 10, 2021, 10:31:01 AM »
Wow.  So every event in history that occurred in which I was not present is simply my "opinion" no matter how well documented?  There are no words.   Maybe the single dumbest post in the history of this forum or perhaps the entire Internet.  Astounding.

You can not be so stupid, can you? That's not what I said. Your strawman is - as per usual - bogus.

So every event in history that occurred in which I was not present is simply my "opinion" no matter how well documented?

No, not "no matter how well documented". To accept something as a historical fact, by a person who was not there to witness it, depends exactly on how well it is documented.

World War II is extremenly well documented to the extent that it clearly is a historical fact and future generations will still see it that way. It's one of those events that can not be denied, regardless of anybody's opinion.

The disappearance of the two Princes in the Tower of London in 1483 is, more often than not, attributed to their uncle who, it is claimed, had them killed so he could become King Richard III. Although the disappearance of the boys is well documented and can be regarded to be a historical fact, their alleged murder at the behest of their uncle is not. That's only an opinion for which there is very little to no evidence.

The donation of Constantine is allegedly a 4th century document that was believed to be authentic for nearly a thousand years, until it was exposed as a 8th century forgery in the late 1500's. There never was any evidence for it's authenticity except for the document itself. All the people who believed it to be authentic had the wrong opinion.

The murder of JFK, on 11/22/63, is beyond dispute. The evidence for the event is overwhelming. However, the opinion of a historian about JFK, published in a newspaper, is no way near as well documented and can not be regarded as a historical fact. If you choose to believe him then that belief becomes your opinion.

I hope you get it now, because I can't dumb it down for you any further.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 11:34:07 AM by Martin Weidmann »