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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 110888 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1048 on: March 18, 2023, 01:56:02 AM »
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There are 7 windows across the TSBD. Oswald was in 7th window 6th floor.  Norman was i think in 6th window 5th floor.
JFK was just west of the overhead signals at Z113, ie opposite/below say the 4th windows (the middle windows).
Hence JFK was 2 windows west of (ie past) Norman. Norman heard the first shot just after the President passed.
U say that this completely refutes a shot at Z113. Nope.

U  say that ….. Any genuine researcher will look at the totality of evidence and let that form their opinion. Yes -- I did so.

U say that Norman says that 3 shots were from above him. Norman based this partly on the bolt & shell clicks & clacks.  But, Speer says that at various dates Norman gave the following 6 descriptions of the clicks & clacks. As u can see 4 of the 6 ended with Boom. Hence in 4 of the 6 Norman heard only 2 sets of clicks & clacks. Hence in 4 of the 6 the last Boom was Hickey's auto burst. We can assume this koz if the last Boom was a shot-3 from Oswald then we would expect to find a spent shell in the Carcano – but it had a full bullet not a spent shell.
1. BOOM…click click…BOOM…click clickBOOM.
2. Boom, clack-clack, boom, clack-clack, boom.
3. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click."
4. boom, then click-click, boom, click-click, boom
5. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click.
6. 'Boom, ack, ack, boom, ack, ack, boom.

There are 7 windows across the TSBD. Oswald was in 7th window 6th floor.  Norman was i think in 6th window 5th floor.

This shows exactly how little you know about this subject.
Norman's position, directly under the assassin's position, is a basic piece of knowledge. Any genuine researcher would know this.
You are clearly unfamiliar with the basics of this case.
I imagine this is because, all you're interested in is trumpeting your Tinfoil  BS: theory, and any facts, no matter how basic, that are not directly related to the nonsense you spout, are of no interest to you.
Do some research for a change and Google "Tom Dilliard photo".

U  say that ….. Any genuine researcher will look at the totality of evidence and let that form their opinion. Yes -- I did so.

What a joke.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1048 on: March 18, 2023, 01:56:02 AM »


Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1049 on: March 18, 2023, 03:26:54 AM »
*Dillard

Online Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1050 on: March 18, 2023, 07:12:09 AM »
There are 7 windows across the TSBD. Oswald was in 7th window 6th floor.  Norman was i think in 6th window 5th floor.

This shows exactly how little you know about this subject.
Norman's position, directly under the assassin's position, is a basic piece of knowledge. Any genuine researcher would know this.
You are clearly unfamiliar with the basics of this case.
I imagine this is because, all you're interested in is trumpeting your Tinfoil  BS: theory, and any facts, no matter how basic, that are not directly related to the nonsense you spout, are of no interest to you.
Do some research for a change and Google "Tom Dilliard photo".

U  say that ….. Any genuine researcher will look at the totality of evidence and let that form their opinion. Yes -- I did so.

What a joke.
So -- Norman was in the 7th window on 5th floor.
U are the joke -- koz placing Norman at the 7th window instead of the 6th window enhances even moreso my argument that shot-1 was at the signals.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1050 on: March 18, 2023, 07:12:09 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1051 on: March 18, 2023, 10:43:05 AM »
Getting back to Fischer's observation of the assassin in the moments before the assassination:

"The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Ell Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."


The assassin is surveying the scene below from the SN window.
When does he takes his shot?
There is a specific window of opportunity in which to make a choice - from the moment the limo first comes into view turning right onto Houston from Main until the limo passes under the triple underpass - it is within the section of the motorcade route the shot must be made, but where exactly? What is the assassin taking into account when deciding where to take the first shot?
Not being a trained assassin or expert marksman (I've never even held a rifle) I can only make a layman's guess at what the most important factor would be when deciding when to take a shot.
I'm guessing the best time would be when there is the least lateral (left to right) movement of the target.



From the point of view of the SN window, at what point is the target moving with the least lateral movement?

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1052 on: March 19, 2023, 02:03:42 AM »
It certainly does appear that the 1st loud noise that is in fact a rifle shot , happened  at Z223 approx.

However there does seem to be the quick turn of Jackie’s head at Z170 approx and so what might be the cause of such quick motion?

My theory is that this Z160-170 motion of Jackie’s head turning and JFKs head seems to turn also as his hand is waving, is possibly a suppressed shot from Daltex bldg.

There was on a time passed by, many years ago a rather involved discussion about a Daltex shot and there was some speculative examination of photos and a window on the 3rd floor which seemed to have a small hole as though might be from breaking the glass .

However it was never quite proved beyond reasonable doubt such hole really existed , and Mr. Myttons analysis  was a leading cause of that doubt.

What is very coincidental is that the 3rd floor window of Daltex bldg, with the “anomaly” (hole) is perfectly the right height and angle for a shooter to get a straight down elm st shot that can clear the windshield of the  SS agent follow car just behind JFK limo.

There is also the coincidence of a known mob guy who was allegedly seen on the 3rd floor of Daltex carrying a brief case,  just minutes before the JFK limo arrived to Houston st, and this man had no alibi for his whereabouts .
 

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1052 on: March 19, 2023, 02:03:42 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1053 on: March 19, 2023, 05:27:41 PM »
It certainly does appear that the 1st loud noise that is in fact a rifle shot , happened  at Z223 approx.

However there does seem to be the quick turn of Jackie’s head at Z170 approx and so what might be the cause of such quick motion?

My theory is that this Z160-170 motion of Jackie’s head turning and JFKs head seems to turn also as his hand is waving, is possibly a suppressed shot from Daltex bldg.

There was on a time passed by, many years ago a rather involved discussion about a Daltex shot and there was some speculative examination of photos and a window on the 3rd floor which seemed to have a small hole as though might be from breaking the glass .

However it was never quite proved beyond reasonable doubt such hole really existed , and Mr. Myttons analysis  was a leading cause of that doubt.

What is very coincidental is that the 3rd floor window of Daltex bldg, with the “anomaly” (hole) is perfectly the right height and angle for a shooter to get a straight down elm st shot that can clear the windshield of the  SS agent follow car just behind JFK limo.

There is also the coincidence of a known mob guy who was allegedly seen on the 3rd floor of Daltex carrying a brief case,  just minutes before the JFK limo arrived to Houston st, and this man had no alibi for his whereabouts .

It certainly does appear that the 1st loud noise that is in fact a rifle shot , happened  at Z223 approx.

Over three quarters (160+) of the witness questioned about how many shots they heard, stated they heard three clearly audible shots.
Of course this still leaves 40+ witnesses who heard a different number of shots, but the weight of the overwhelming majority of witness statements is compelling evidence that there were three clearly audible shots in Dealey Plaza that day.
In this thread there is a mountain of evidence supporting the conclusion that the first of these three clearly audible shots was at z222/z223.

However there does seem to be the quick turn of Jackie’s head at Z170 approx and so what might be the cause of such quick motion?

My theory is that this Z160-170 motion of Jackie’s head turning and JFKs head seems to turn also as his hand is waving, is possibly a suppressed shot from Daltex bldg.


It is indeed the case that at around z170 both JFK and Jackie begin to turn their heads to their right. In about the space of one second both of them turn their heads directly to their right and JFK begins waving and smiling. This action is so quick and coordinated that it seems very likely both of them are reacting to the same "stimulus".
Your theory is that this "stimulus" that causes them to react, is a suppressed shot from the Daltex building.
There are a few problems with this theory:
1) If JFK and Jackie are responding to a shot from the Daltex, which is almost directly behind them, why do they both look directly to their right at the people lining Elm Street?
2) Isn't it unusual that JFK's reaction to this suppressed shot is to start waving and smiling at the crowds lining Elm Street?
3) If the shot is "suppressed", that is, the shot is more or less silent, how can Jackie or JFK hear it in order to react to it?
Even if they are turning because they heard a suppressed shot, why does this mean it came from the Daltex?

If we look at Jackie's WC testimony we don't find anything that even hints she might have reacted to a suppressed shot:

"You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."

Jackie is completely unaware there is anything wrong until she hears Connally yelling out, which is surely a reaction to him being shot. If we look at Zapruder this cannot happen until after the limo has passed from behind the Stemmons sign, long after z170.
There is absolutely nothing to support the notion that either Jackie or JFK are reacting to a suppressed shot but, as I say, they do both appear to be reacting to something starting at z170.
If they are not reacting to a suppressed shot, then what are they reacting to?
The answer to this has already been well covered in this thread but I will repeat it here.
When JFK and Jackie look directly to their right, beginning at z170, they are looking towards a line of people on Elm Street that includes Mary Woodward and her work colleagues. Woodward is one of the first eyewitnesses to report on the shooting:

This is from an article in the Dallas Morning News entitled, "Witness From the News Describes Assassination", written by Woodward the day after the assassination [lifted from Pat Speer's website]:

"Four of us from Women’s News, Maggie Brown, Aurelia Alonzo, my roommate Ann Donaldson, and myself had decided to spend our lunch hour by going to see the President. We took our lunch along – some crackers and apples – and started walking down Houston Street. We decided to cross Elm and wait there on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass, since there weren’t very many people there and we could get a better view. We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed. Jackie was wearing a beautiful pink suit with beret to match. Two of us, who had seen the President last during the final weeks of the 1960 campaign, remarked almost simultaneously how relaxed and robust he looked. As it turned out, we were almost certainly the last faces he noticed in the crowd. After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the right.

When we examine the Zapruder film there is only one moment when both JFK and Jackie are looking toward the crowds lining Elm Street to their right and it is when they both begin to turn around z170. This must surely be the moment Woodward is describing when she states "both he [JFK] and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us..."
Woodward's position on Elm Street is out of shot by z170 so I have cobbled together a couple of Z-frames to illustrate it. I've used z152, which shows Woodward's position and overlaid z170, the moment when Jackie and JFK begin to turn to their right:

upload a pic

The moment when Woodward and friends call out making Jackie and JFK turn to their right, is recalled by Vickie Adams in her WC testimony. Adams is watching the motorcade from the fourth floor and states:

"I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them."

Both Adams and Woodward insist the first shot occurred shortly after this moment, ruling out an earlier shot.

There was on a time passed by, many years ago a rather involved discussion about a Daltex shot and there was some speculative examination of photos and a window on the 3rd floor which seemed to have a small hole as though might be from breaking the glass .

However it was never quite proved beyond reasonable doubt such hole really existed , and Mr. Myttons analysis  was a leading cause of that doubt.

What is very coincidental is that the 3rd floor window of Daltex bldg, with the “anomaly” (hole) is perfectly the right height and angle for a shooter to get a straight down elm st shot that can clear the windshield of the  SS agent follow car just behind JFK limo.


I am unaware of this anomaly regarding the 3rd floor window of the Daltex, but it seems like a product of "reverse thinking" that so often happens when someone is trying to support a theory. You say it's coincidental this anomaly is on the 3rd floor but that may not be the case. If you already have reached the conclusion there was a shot from the Daltex you will look for any tiny thing that might support this notion. So some kind of blurry anomaly is spotted at the 3rd floor window and this is used to support the theory. It's not coincidental the anomaly is in that position - it's being used because it is in that position! It's not coincidental at all.

There is also the coincidence of a known mob guy who was allegedly seen on the 3rd floor of Daltex carrying a brief case,  just minutes before the JFK limo arrived to Houston st, and this man had no alibi for his whereabouts .

Again, this is not a coincidence. I imagine the shot from the Daltex theory originates because this dodgy guy, Jim Braden, is known to have been in the Daltex. The theory of the Daltex shot probably exists because of this single fact. It is then a search for any tiny detail that might support this conclusion and,as we've seen, the support for this theory is pretty weak sauce.
When we ask - Did Jackie and JFK turn because - a) they heard a suppressed from the Daltex building, for which there is zero evidence, or, b) people calling from the crowd to their right caused them to turn and look, for which there is ample testimonial evidence - the answer seems obvious. It does to me, anyway.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 05:37:33 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1054 on: March 20, 2023, 11:45:47 PM »
It certainly does appear that the 1st loud noise that is in fact a rifle shot , happened  at Z223 approx.

....
In this thread there is a mountain of evidence supporting the conclusion that the first of these three clearly audible shots was at z222/z223.

I would agree with you that there is a mountain of evidence that the first shot was after z190.  We also know that it was before z224/225 because JFK was showing obvious signs of being hit there.  But there is not a mountain of evidence that it was at z222/z223. In fact, there is consistent evidence that it was earlier.

There is the evidence of TE Moore that the first shot sounded by the time JFK reached the Thornton Freeway sign. He was opposite that sign at z200.  Linda Willis said that JFK was between her and the Thornton sign when the first shot sounded.  That puts it at z195-z205.  Phil Willis said his z202 photo was taken an instant AFTER the first shot - that the sound of the shot caused him to reflexively react and press the shutter.  There is also the evidence of the occupants of the VP Security car that the first shot occurred just before they completed the turn onto Elm - one (Clifton Carter 7 H 474) described their position as "right along side" of the TSBD.  They were in that position around z190 but were well past that by z222.

Quote
The moment when Woodward and friends call out making Jackie and JFK turn to their right, is recalled by Vickie Adams in her WC testimony. Adams is watching the motorcade from the fourth floor and states:

"I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them."

Both Adams and Woodward insist the first shot occurred shortly after this moment, ruling out an earlier shot.
That would seem to be the case. Woodward's recollection was that JFK and Jackie responded to their shouts and acknowledged them and that they were the last group he ever acknowledged.  If that is true, then she must have been referring to the reactions beginning around z175 as JFK waves and Jackie turns.


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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1054 on: March 20, 2023, 11:45:47 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1055 on: March 22, 2023, 12:17:35 AM »
I would agree with you that there is a mountain of evidence that the first shot was after z190.  We also know that it was before z224/225 because JFK was showing obvious signs of being hit there.  But there is not a mountain of evidence that it was at z222/z223. In fact, there is consistent evidence that it was earlier.

There is the evidence of TE Moore that the first shot sounded by the time JFK reached the Thornton Freeway sign. He was opposite that sign at z200.  Linda Willis said that JFK was between her and the Thornton sign when the first shot sounded.  That puts it at z195-z205.  Phil Willis said his z202 photo was taken an instant AFTER the first shot - that the sound of the shot caused him to reflexively react and press the shutter.  There is also the evidence of the occupants of the VP Security car that the first shot occurred just before they completed the turn onto Elm - one (Clifton Carter 7 H 474) described their position as "right along side" of the TSBD.  They were in that position around z190 but were well past that by z222.


Here he comes again.
Andrew and his dead theory like some kind of zombie, but not the quick, dangerous ones you have nowadays, more like the ones from the '70's that you could get away from with a brisk walk..
Just look at the "mountain" of evidence he presents - a couple of cherry-picked eyewitness statements. One of the other members of the forum nicely summed up this disingenuous approach:

"Andrew, I've been reading your stuff since you started this theory in the early 2000's at John McAdams newsgroup, and it still makes me shake my head in dismay that you are still arguing about this.   You should know by now that eyewitness accounts aren't always accurate, and this is why police officers do not rely totally on eyewitness accounts.   This seems to be all that you use are eyewitness accounts to attempt making a case.  I stopped relying on the eyewitness accounts years ago when I saw for myself that they're totally unreliable..."

This thread is the final resting place for your dead theory, which has been utterly torn to shreds.
Your argument that the bullet exited Connally's chest around z271 has been completely destroyed in this thread.
Your absolutely fantastical notion that the bullet passed through JFK and stuck in Connally's leg, without going through his torso, has been similarly destroyed.
All of the "mountain" of evidence you present here has been dealt with numerous times in this thread with the possible exception of T E Moore, and I have no doubt that closer scrutiny of that evidence will reveal the usual sketchy eyewitness testimony that is your bread and butter.

As for your shot in the mid z190's.
As everyone knows this would require the assassin to shoot through the oak tree, something that has similarly been dissected in this thread.
But just to tie it in with the Fischer testimony I have recently presented here:



Fischer testifies that just before the motorcade entered Dealey Plaza he was looking at the man in the SN window. He testifies that for the 10-15 seconds he watching, this man was staring "transfixed" in the direction of the triple underpass.
The picture above gives us a very good idea of what the assassin would have been looking at.
It is my contention that the assassin was "visualising" his kill zone. That he had already decided exactly where he was going to take his shot (rather than randomly taking potshots at the limo as it passed by).
If we look at the oak tree towards the bottom it becomes obvious the assassin would not need to take a shot through it, as just beyond is an open stretch of road.
Elm Street, as seen in the picture above, forms a gentle S-curve. It is also my contention that the assassin would have "visualised" the point where there was least lateral movement of the target. In the picture above this would have been a point just after where the man is stood on the road in front of the white car.
He most certainly wouldn't have been firing through the tree, there would be no need.






Quote
That would seem to be the case. Woodward's recollection was that JFK and Jackie responded to their shouts and acknowledged them and that they were the last group he ever acknowledged.  If that is true, then she must have been referring to the reactions beginning around z175 as JFK waves and Jackie turns.

I know.
That's why I posted it.  ::)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2023, 12:51:55 AM by Dan O'meara »