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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 129729 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1040 on: March 15, 2023, 08:08:01 PM »
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I thought I'd been through every piece of evidence regarding when the first shot occurred but this, seemingly innocuous, detail from the testimony of Ronald Fischer just randomly jumped into my head and gave me a potentially new insight into the mind of the assassin in the moments immediately before the assassination.
Other researchers have the assassin stood up, firing into the street below him, bullets ricocheting off traffic light poles or firing through the oak tree, blasting through branches of the tree and other such nonsense - as if the assassin hadn't already decided exactly what he was going to do beforehand and was instead just taking random potshots as the Presidential limo passed by the TSBD.

This is the relevant passage from Fischer's WC testimony:

"And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Ell Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."

Fischer only looks away from the assassin because the motorcade has finally reached the end of Main Street.
In the 10-15 seconds he stares at this man, the assassin never looks to where the motorcade is coming into view. For that whole period of time the assassin stares towards the triple underpass, he never moves his head, never moves his body, just stares towards the triple underpass - "transfixed".
What is it that the assassin is staring at?
Why does he seem uninterested in the motorcade?
What could possibly be of interest to the assassin down towards the triple underpass when his target, in the motorcade, is about to come into view?

In my opinion, it is the word "transfixed" that provides the key to understanding what is going on in the mind of the assassin.
He is visualising the kill zone.
He has already decided exactly where he is going to assassinate his target.
As he looks towards the triple underpass he is aware of the oak tree but is more focused on the stretch of open road just beyond the oak tree. He has already decided that once the limo has emerged from behind the oak tree and is out in the open, he will pull the trigger.
The first shot does not occur before the limo has reached the oak tree.
It does not occur while the limo is obscured by the oak tree.
It occurs when the limo has emerged from behind the oak tree and is out in the open stretch of road just beyond the oak tree.
The open stretch of road the assassin has been transfixed on as the motorcade reaches the end of Main Street.
In perfect agreement with the first shot at z222/223 I've been arguing for in the bulk of this thread

It's not evidence.
It doesn't refute an earlier shot (although there is plenty of evidence in this thread that does).
It's an interpretation of the strange behavior of the assassin moments before the assassination takes place.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 08:10:39 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1040 on: March 15, 2023, 08:08:01 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1041 on: March 16, 2023, 11:46:22 AM »


Above is the view from the SN window the assassin was staring at, "transfixed".
As far as the assassin is concerned there is only one feature of interest - the open stretch of road beyond the oak tree.
It makes perfect sense that the assassin has already made up his mind regarding his plan of action.
The idea that he starts taking random potshots as the limo passes the TSBD won't fly. The idea that he is rushing so much he needs to fire through the oak tree won't fly.
Look at the picture above, if you were the assassin, when would you pull the trigger?

Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1042 on: March 16, 2023, 03:44:13 PM »
If Norman heard Oswald eject a casing 3 times in fairly quick succession then that suggests that Oswald ejected the first casing at about the same time as the jfklimo started to turn from Houston into Elm.
We know that Oswald's shot-1 was at latest at pseudo Z113 -- this was when the jfklimo had passed by his window & had just passed the overhead signals -- shot-1 ricocheted offa the overhead signal arm.
I have always wondered whether Oswald pulled the trigger when the jfklimo was starting its turn into Elm -- ie a dry fire -- koz he forgot to eject the old empty casing.
If he hadnt forgotten to eject the old casing then he would have ejected it well before the jfklimo came into view in Houston.
Anyhow, now i come to what i really wanted to mention -- Oswald might not have known what the jfklimo looked like -- did he know that it might have the plastic bubble rain cover on -- did he know that the bubble was not bullet proof -- did he know that there was a divider/roll'bar that partly hid jfk from the SN until the limo was almost starting its turn into Elm -- did he know that jfk would be in the rear right seat.
If he fired a dry shot early on then he would have been flustered & likely to forget about or misjudge the problem of the overhead signal arm blocking a shot hence the ricochet at Z113.
Then in any case he fired shot-2 ok at Z216, hitting jfk & Connally at Z218-219.
Then he stood up & stepped back & saw Hickey blow jfk's brain out at Z313 -- anyhow i wonder why didnt Oswald fire his shot-3, albeit a long shot.




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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1042 on: March 16, 2023, 03:44:13 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1043 on: March 16, 2023, 05:31:22 PM »
If Norman heard Oswald eject a casing 3 times in fairly quick succession then that suggests that Oswald ejected the first casing at about the same time as the jfklimo started to turn from Houston into Elm.
We know that Oswald's shot-1 was at latest at pseudo Z113 -- this was when the jfklimo had passed by his window & had just passed the overhead signals -- shot-1 ricocheted offa the overhead signal arm.
I have always wondered whether Oswald pulled the trigger when the jfklimo was starting its turn into Elm -- ie a dry fire -- koz he forgot to eject the old empty casing.
If he hadnt forgotten to eject the old casing then he would have ejected it well before the jfklimo came into view in Houston.
Anyhow, now i come to what i really wanted to mention -- Oswald might not have known what the jfklimo looked like -- did he know that it might have the plastic bubble rain cover on -- did he know that the bubble was not bullet proof -- did he know that there was a divider/roll'bar that partly hid jfk from the SN until the limo was almost starting its turn into Elm -- did he know that jfk would be in the rear right seat.
If he fired a dry shot early on then he would have been flustered & likely to forget about or misjudge the problem of the overhead signal arm blocking a shot hence the ricochet at Z113.
Then in any case he fired shot-2 ok at Z216, hitting jfk & Connally at Z218-219.
Then he stood up & stepped back & saw Hickey blow jfk's brain out at Z313 -- anyhow i wonder why didnt Oswald fire his shot-3, albeit a long shot.

If Norman heard Oswald eject a casing 3 times in fairly quick succession then that suggests that Oswald ejected the first casing at about the same time as the jfklimo started to turn from Houston into Elm.

I'm really interested in hearing the logic behind this statement.
I suspect for many researcher's this may qualify as one of the most ludicrous sentences ever posted on this forum but I believe you have a rational explanation for it and I would really like to hear it.

Then he stood up & stepped back & saw Hickey blow jfk's brain out at Z313

Hmmm...
My hopes for a rational explanation regarding your first sentence have been greatly diminished.

Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1044 on: March 17, 2023, 12:05:19 AM »
If Norman heard Oswald eject a casing 3 times in fairly quick succession then that suggests that Oswald ejected the first casing at about the same time as the jfklimo started to turn from Houston into Elm.

I'm really interested in hearing the logic behind this statement.
I suspect for many researcher's this may qualify as one of the most ludicrous sentences ever posted on this forum but I believe you have a rational explanation for it and I would really like to hear it.

Then he stood up & stepped back & saw Hickey blow jfk's brain out at Z313

Hmmm...
My hopes for a rational explanation regarding your first sentence have been greatly diminished.
Harold Norman
"He stated that about the time the car in which the president was riding turned on to Elm Street, he heard a shot. He said he thought the shot had been fired from the floor directly above him. He further stated at that time he stuck his head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above him. He stated two additional shots were fired after he had pulled his head back in from the window.”………..
“Just after the President passed by I heard a shot and several seconds later, I heard two more shots.  I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle………..
………..“About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking at the public…I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said “I believe someone is shooting at the President,” and I think I made a statement “it is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us. Well, I couldn’t see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle.” ……..
And I said “I know I’m right” because I could hear something sound as though the shells were hitting the floor and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, clicks like that, you know.”………
…..(Later in the same broadcast) “Well, I was looking out the window and the first shot was fired. Well, y'know, I didn't think much of it, because it, shook the building a little bit. Really, it was just that powerful. Then after the second shot was fired, well, I saw the people. They were all falling on the ground. And I told one of the fellows. I say, “That shot came from this building.” And then by that time I heard the third shot. And one of the guys told me, he said, “I believe you’re right.” And I say “I know it did." And then I could, you know, also hear the hulls, empty hulls, the cartridges, hitting the floor, and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, whatever it was……..
………….."When the President came around, he was waving, seemed to be happy. About that time I heard a shot, and one of the guys said "Somebody's shooting at the President." ……
…………..And I could even now hear the empty cartridge hit the floor I mean after the shots had been fired. …..
…………(When asked how many shots he heard) “Three. I’d say just about like this BOOM…click click…BOOM…click clickBOOM. Something similar to that.”
…………..(On the shooting) "just as the motorcade came around...3 shots was fired...Boom, clack-clack, boom, clack-clack, boom. One at a time……….
………..(When asked if heard any cartridges fall) "I heard three." …….
…………."Well, I heard a shot when the motorcade came by. The first shot, it made the President slump. Then I heard two more shots." (When asked if he heard a total of three shots) "Yes, sir." (When asked how he could tell the shots came from above) "Yes, sir...Because I could hear the empty hulls--that's what I call them--hit the floor and I could hear the bolt action of the rifle being pushed back and forward." (When asked how many hulls he heard hit the floor) "Three." (When asked by the defense to describe the rhythm of the sounds) "As I recall, the rhythm of the sounds of the shots was Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click."
(1-19-92 interview with Gerald Posner, reported in Case Closed, 1993) "When the first shot came, I heard boom, then click-click, boom, click-click, boom. I could hear the sound of the click. I could hear the sound of the shells hitting the floor. I could hear everything. Three shots. No doubt in my mind."
………..The shots came from above and there was a gun and the shots were sounding, "Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." So there was three shots fired right up over us when we were sitting on the fifth floor.”……….
………..  And all of a sudden, we hear something. 'Boom, ack, ack, boom, ack, ack, boom.' …………
……….And that was three of the shells I heard on the floor. And when the police officer asked about it, we told them about it and they went up there and that is what they found up there on the sixth floor. Three empty cartridge shells up there."
………..He laughed and walked away.' A few minutes later, Norman said, he heard three shots fired from the sixth floor window directly above the one he was using to view the parade."
Edited April 14, 2012 by Pat Speer.

Norman in places supports an early shot.
Brennan's statements support that Oswald stood up & back from the window  before the headshot.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1044 on: March 17, 2023, 12:05:19 AM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1045 on: March 17, 2023, 12:06:14 AM »
Norman says …… Boom-click-click……. Boom-click-click…… Boom-click-click.
Norman says …… Boom-click-click……. Boom-click-click…… Boom.
Norman contradicts hizself – he said he heard 2 empty shells – he said he heard 3 empty shells.
I don’t know whether Norman's above click-click is (1) the bolt being pushed back and then forward, or whether the click-click is (2) the bolt being pushed back & forward & then the sound of the empty shell hitting the floor.

Anyhow, i had a look at a Carcano on youtube.

The bolt is forward & down. The Carcano is empty – no bullet – no clip.

Loading a clip (5 bullets).
click (bolt lift) – clack (bolt back) --  now ready to load clip down into Carcano.
clip-clip-clip-clip -- there were a few soft clips & 1 loud clip in the middle when loading the clip.

Loading the first bullet. The bolt is initially up & back.
clock (bolt forward) – clock (bolt down) – now ready to shoot.

Shooting & reloading.
Bang (the shot) …… click (bolt lift) – clack (bolt back)(eject) – clockk (bolt forward)(& then bolt down)(combined) – klunk (hull hitting ground).
Clockk – this was a combined bolt forward & bolt down – making one combined sound.
Klunk – this was more of a thud here when hitting ground, or it was a klink if hitting another shell on the ground -- or of course it would be a klunk if hitting a wooden floor (or a klunketyklunketyklunk).
The clockk & the klunk were at the same time, or the klunk was sometimes slightly after (difficult to tell).

So, what sounds could Oswald have made?
[ a ] In a simple case he is ready to pull the trigger, & fires 2 shots, in which case Norman might hear….
Bang …… click-clack-clockk-klunketyklunketyklunk.………. (Oswald then takes aim).
Bang …… click-clack-clockk- klunketyklunketyklunk.
Oswald then duznt pull the trigger to fire his last bullet.

[ b ] If for some reason Oswald was not ready to pull the trigger then Norman might have heard….
click-clack-clockk-klunketyklunketyklunk (very old empty shell ejected)(& bullet loaded) ……… (Oswald then takes aim).
Bang …… click-clack-clockk- klunketyklunketyklunk ………. (Oswald then takes aim).
Bang …… click-clack-clockk- klunketyklunketyklunk.
Oswald then duznt pull the trigger to fire his last bullet.

In [ a ] Norman hears 2 shells hit the floor.  In [ b ] Norman hears 3 shells hit the floor.
In both [ a ]&[ b ] Norman would have heard the Baaannggg of Hickey's auto burst say 6 seconds after Oswald's 2 Bangs.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2023, 12:03:32 AM by Marjan Rynkiewicz »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1046 on: March 17, 2023, 02:00:22 AM »
Harold Norman
"He stated that about the time the car in which the president was riding turned on to Elm Street, he heard a shot. He said he thought the shot had been fired from the floor directly above him. He further stated at that time he stuck his head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above him. He stated two additional shots were fired after he had pulled his head back in from the window.”………..
“Just after the President passed by I heard a shot and several seconds later, I heard two more shots.  I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the bolt action of the rifle………..
………..“About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking at the public…I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said “I believe someone is shooting at the President,” and I think I made a statement “it is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us. Well, I couldn’t see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle.” ……..
And I said “I know I’m right” because I could hear something sound as though the shells were hitting the floor and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, clicks like that, you know.”………
…..(Later in the same broadcast) “Well, I was looking out the window and the first shot was fired. Well, y'know, I didn't think much of it, because it, shook the building a little bit. Really, it was just that powerful. Then after the second shot was fired, well, I saw the people. They were all falling on the ground. And I told one of the fellows. I say, “That shot came from this building.” And then by that time I heard the third shot. And one of the guys told me, he said, “I believe you’re right.” And I say “I know it did." And then I could, you know, also hear the hulls, empty hulls, the cartridges, hitting the floor, and I could hear the ejection of the rifle, whatever it was……..
………….."When the President came around, he was waving, seemed to be happy. About that time I heard a shot, and one of the guys said "Somebody's shooting at the President." ……
…………..And I could even now hear the empty cartridge hit the floor I mean after the shots had been fired. …..
…………(When asked how many shots he heard) “Three. I’d say just about like this BOOM…click click…BOOM…click clickBOOM. Something similar to that.”
…………..(On the shooting) "just as the motorcade came around...3 shots was fired...Boom, clack-clack, boom, clack-clack, boom. One at a time……….
………..(When asked if heard any cartridges fall) "I heard three." …….
…………."Well, I heard a shot when the motorcade came by. The first shot, it made the President slump. Then I heard two more shots." (When asked if he heard a total of three shots) "Yes, sir." (When asked how he could tell the shots came from above) "Yes, sir...Because I could hear the empty hulls--that's what I call them--hit the floor and I could hear the bolt action of the rifle being pushed back and forward." (When asked how many hulls he heard hit the floor) "Three." (When asked by the defense to describe the rhythm of the sounds) "As I recall, the rhythm of the sounds of the shots was Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click."
(1-19-92 interview with Gerald Posner, reported in Case Closed, 1993) "When the first shot came, I heard boom, then click-click, boom, click-click, boom. I could hear the sound of the click. I could hear the sound of the shells hitting the floor. I could hear everything. Three shots. No doubt in my mind."
………..The shots came from above and there was a gun and the shots were sounding, "Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click." So there was three shots fired right up over us when we were sitting on the fifth floor.”……….
………..  And all of a sudden, we hear something. 'Boom, ack, ack, boom, ack, ack, boom.' …………
……….And that was three of the shells I heard on the floor. And when the police officer asked about it, we told them about it and they went up there and that is what they found up there on the sixth floor. Three empty cartridge shells up there."
………..He laughed and walked away.' A few minutes later, Norman said, he heard three shots fired from the sixth floor window directly above the one he was using to view the parade."
Edited April 14, 2012 by Pat Speer.

Norman in places supports an early shot.
Brennan's statements support that Oswald stood up & back from the window  before the headshot.

Any genuine researcher will look at the totality of evidence and let that form their opinion.
A Tinfoil nutjob will look for the tiniest bit of evidence that might support their bonkers theory.
I'll use the testimony Marjan has posted to demonstrate what I mean.

In every example Norman gives of the shots he heard from above his position, he describes three "Booms", that is to say three shots coming from above him. Nowhere does he describe two shots coming from above him and one shot from elsewhere. It must also be noted that Norman, like every other single witness watching the the motorcade in Dealey Plaza, fails to spot Hickey's fatal headshot. Not a single witness spots this. Isn't that incredible?
Marjan would have us believe the first shot occurred before Zapruder started filming JFK's limo in the motorcade (z133). He places it at an imaginary z113. As the headshot occurred at z313 this would leave an 11 second gap between these two shots. Now imagine Norman's description of the shots - Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click. Just run it through your mind and see if you can get it to last 11 seconds.

Here are few of Norman's statements Marjan posted, which he has failed to take into account-

“About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking at the public…I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said “I believe someone is shooting at the President,” and I think I made a statement “it is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us. Well, I couldn’t see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle.”

After the first shot the President slumped. Does this support a shot at z113?

“Just after the President passed by I heard a shot..."

Norman heard the shot after the President had passed his position. This also rules out a shot at z113.

"When the President came around, he was waving, seemed to be happy. About that time I heard a shot...

Mary Woodward and Victoria Adams also agree the first shot took place just after JFK had been waving - long after z113.

"Well, I heard a shot when the motorcade came by. The first shot, it made the President slump. Then I heard two more shots."

The first shot made the President slump? Again, this completely refutes a shot at z113.

Harold Norman's testimony does not support a shot as early as z113. A genuine researcher would see that immediately.

"Brennan's statements support that Oswald stood up & back from the window  before the headshot."

Really?
Where can I find this testimony?

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1046 on: March 17, 2023, 02:00:22 AM »


Offline Marjan Rynkiewicz

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1047 on: March 17, 2023, 07:38:06 AM »
Any genuine researcher will look at the totality of evidence and let that form their opinion.
A Tinfoil nutjob will look for the tiniest bit of evidence that might support their bonkers theory.
I'll use the testimony Marjan has posted to demonstrate what I mean.

In every example Norman gives of the shots he heard from above his position, he describes three "Booms", that is to say three shots coming from above him. Nowhere does he describe two shots coming from above him and one shot from elsewhere. It must also be noted that Norman, like every other single witness watching the the motorcade in Dealey Plaza, fails to spot Hickey's fatal headshot. Not a single witness spots this. Isn't that incredible?
Marjan would have us believe the first shot occurred before Zapruder started filming JFK's limo in the motorcade (z133). He places it at an imaginary z113. As the headshot occurred at z313 this would leave an 11 second gap between these two shots. Now imagine Norman's description of the shots - Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click. Just run it through your mind and see if you can get it to last 11 seconds.

Here are few of Norman's statements Marjan posted, which he has failed to take into account-

“About the time that he got past the window where I was, well, it seems as though he was, I mean you know, brushing his hair. Maybe he was looking at the public…I can’t remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard a shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said “I believe someone is shooting at the President,” and I think I made a statement “it is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us. Well, I couldn’t see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle.”

After the first shot the President slumped. Does this support a shot at z113?

“Just after the President passed by I heard a shot..."

Norman heard the shot after the President had passed his position. This also rules out a shot at z113.

"When the President came around, he was waving, seemed to be happy. About that time I heard a shot...

Mary Woodward and Victoria Adams also agree the first shot took place just after JFK had been waving - long after z113.

"Well, I heard a shot when the motorcade came by. The first shot, it made the President slump. Then I heard two more shots."

The first shot made the President slump? Again, this completely refutes a shot at z113.

Harold Norman's testimony does not support a shot as early as z113. A genuine researcher would see that immediately.

"Brennan's statements support that Oswald stood up & back from the window  before the headshot."

Really?
Where can I find this testimony?
There are 7 windows across the TSBD. Oswald was in 7th window 6th floor.  Norman was i think in 6th window 5th floor.
JFK was just west of the overhead signals at Z113, ie opposite/below say the 4th windows (the middle windows).
Hence JFK was 2 windows west of (ie past) Norman. Norman heard the first shot just after the President passed.
U say that this completely refutes a shot at Z113. Nope.

U  say that ….. Any genuine researcher will look at the totality of evidence and let that form their opinion. Yes -- I did so.

U say that Norman says that 3 shots were from above him. Norman based this partly on the bolt & shell clicks & clacks.  But, Speer says that at various dates Norman gave the following 6 descriptions of the clicks & clacks. As u can see 4 of the 6 ended with Boom. Hence in 4 of the 6 Norman heard only 2 sets of clicks & clacks. Hence in 4 of the 6 the last Boom was Hickey's auto burst. We can assume this koz if the last Boom was a shot-3 from Oswald then we would expect to find a spent shell in the Carcano – but it had a full bullet not a spent shell.
1. BOOM…click click…BOOM…click clickBOOM.
2. Boom, clack-clack, boom, clack-clack, boom.
3. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click."
4. boom, then click-click, boom, click-click, boom
5. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click. Boom! Click, click.
6. 'Boom, ack, ack, boom, ack, ack, boom.