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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 133923 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1016 on: May 14, 2022, 06:18:52 PM »
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billchapman

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1016 on: May 14, 2022, 06:18:52 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1017 on: May 15, 2022, 10:38:49 AM »

billchapman

Good for you Bill. You are the first person ever to agree with Andrew that there was a shot at Z270+. Good to be remembered for something.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1018 on: May 15, 2022, 05:09:56 PM »
Good for you Bill. You are the first person ever to agree with Andrew that there was a shot at Z270+. Good to be remembered for something.

Zero shots fired if Marina had let Oswald in from the cold


billchapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1018 on: May 15, 2022, 05:09:56 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1019 on: May 15, 2022, 05:16:31 PM »
Zero shots fired if Marina had let Oswald in from the cold


billchapman

They would have been looking for an apartment that day. The whole event revolved on such a simple thing.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1020 on: May 15, 2022, 05:58:48 PM »
They would have been looking for an apartment that day. The whole event revolved on such a simple thing.

Since when is the battle-of-the-sexes ever simple..
 :D
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 06:03:54 PM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1020 on: May 15, 2022, 05:58:48 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1021 on: May 15, 2022, 10:32:33 PM »
So to summarize your post there is no proof. Nothing new there.

It turns out overwhelming evidence is really no evidence at all, just your opinion. No evidence at all that there ever was a third shot. The video of the assassination only exhibits evidence of two shots. You have not proven otherwise or even created a question about the possible existence of a third shot. A shot at Z270+ is just a pipe dream. Belief in a third shot at all is just fantasy.


Again, and I cannot stress this enough, the report you believe to be overwhelming evidence was compiled by the HSCA who then dismissed it by stating the witnesses were influenced by the media into inflating the number of shots. The WC gave the same assessment of the witness statements.

The question of the possibility of there being a third shot totally relies on the statements of earwitnesses, influenced by the media, into inflating the number of shots. The large majority of eye witnesses stated there was just two shots.

The fact you cannot prove otherwise should be a clue, but with your history of promoting this nonsense, I am sure you will not come to reality.

"No evidence at all that there ever was a third shot."

Not quite, there are a couple of early reports that a bullet was found near the concrete part of a manhole cover that had been hit by a bullet which ricocheted into the grass nearby.
William Allen and Jim Murray took a series of photographs which appear to show Buddy Walthers and an unknown "agent" searching this area. The following is taken from an article entitled, "Mysterious Bullet Found on the Infield in Dealey Plaza?":

"Author Richard Dudman, writing in the December 21, 1963 New Republic (p. 18), reported:

On the day the President was shot, I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another bullet in the grass."


The following is taken from Pat Speer's website:

"(As quoted in Red Roses from Texas, by Nerin Gun, published February 1964) "Buddy Walthers, the policeman from the Sheriff's office, states for his part that the shots—or at least one shot--came from the balustrade of the motorway bridge. He ran towards it; that was when, with a Secret Service man, he found a rifle bullet in the grass near the bridge--the "fourth bullet"? (Later) "Why is the existence of a fourth rifle bullet denied? Detective Bill Walthers declares that he found it. He described to me himself how he found the bullet and a picture taken immediately after the shooting by a Dallas Times photographer shows this detective and a Secret Service man in the act of retrieving a bullet from the turf at the roadside."


Dudman reports a police inspector (who can only have been Walthers), personally telling him a bullet had been found by the men examining the area. Gun reports Walthers personally describing how he found the bullet. He also describes the unknown "Secret Service man" who was pictured multiple times with Walthers at the area by the manhole cover. Walthers must have been aware of the two photographers stood close by taking pictures of him discovering the bullet so why wouldn't he feel free to report it. However, by the time of his WC testimony he has changed his tune completely.

The photos show Walthers reaching to the ground then standing with his hand clenched as if he has picked something up. He still has his hand clenched as the unknown Agent crouches to search the same area. Then we see Walthers with his hand open but the Agent has his hand closed shut as if Walthers has passed what he has found over to him. The Agent is then seen apparently putting something in his back pocket.



Photos - Unger gallery and Baylor university
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 10:43:12 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1022 on: May 16, 2022, 06:38:24 AM »
"No evidence at all that there ever was a third shot."

Not quite, there are a couple of early reports that a bullet was found near the concrete part of a manhole cover that had been hit by a bullet which ricocheted into the grass nearby.
William Allen and Jim Murray took a series of photographs which appear to show Buddy Walthers and an unknown "agent" searching this area. The following is taken from an article entitled, "Mysterious Bullet Found on the Infield in Dealey Plaza?":

"Author Richard Dudman, writing in the December 21, 1963 New Republic (p. 18), reported:

On the day the President was shot, I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another bullet in the grass."


The following is taken from Pat Speer's website:

"(As quoted in Red Roses from Texas, by Nerin Gun, published February 1964) "Buddy Walthers, the policeman from the Sheriff's office, states for his part that the shots—or at least one shot--came from the balustrade of the motorway bridge. He ran towards it; that was when, with a Secret Service man, he found a rifle bullet in the grass near the bridge--the "fourth bullet"? (Later) "Why is the existence of a fourth rifle bullet denied? Detective Bill Walthers declares that he found it. He described to me himself how he found the bullet and a picture taken immediately after the shooting by a Dallas Times photographer shows this detective and a Secret Service man in the act of retrieving a bullet from the turf at the roadside."


Dudman reports a police inspector (who can only have been Walthers), personally telling him a bullet had been found by the men examining the area. Gun reports Walthers personally describing how he found the bullet. He also describes the unknown "Secret Service man" who was pictured multiple times with Walthers at the area by the manhole cover. Walthers must have been aware of the two photographers stood close by taking pictures of him discovering the bullet so why wouldn't he feel free to report it. However, by the time of his WC testimony he has changed his tune completely.

The photos show Walthers reaching to the ground then standing with his hand clenched as if he has picked something up. He still has his hand clenched as the unknown Agent crouches to search the same area. Then we see Walthers with his hand open but the Agent has his hand closed shut as if Walthers has passed what he has found over to him. The Agent is then seen apparently putting something in his back pocket.



Photos - Unger gallery and Baylor university

Not according to Buddy Walters himself.

Mr. Liebeler.
There has also been a story, some sort of story that you were supposed to have found a spent bullet.
Mr. Walthers.
Yes; that's what the story was in this book, and man, I've never made a statement about finding a spent bullet.
Mr. Liebeler.
And you never found any spent bullet?
Mr. Walthers.
No;
me and Allan Sweatt 2 or 3 days after the assassination did go back down there and make a pretty diligent search in there all up where that bullet might have hit, thinking that maybe the bullet hit the cement and laid down on some of them beams but we looked all up there and everywhere and I never did find one. I never did in all of my life tell anybody I found a bullet other than where it hit.


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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1022 on: May 16, 2022, 06:38:24 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #1023 on: May 16, 2022, 10:44:46 AM »
Not according to Buddy Walters himself.

Mr. Liebeler.
There has also been a story, some sort of story that you were supposed to have found a spent bullet.
Mr. Walthers.
Yes; that's what the story was in this book, and man, I've never made a statement about finding a spent bullet.
Mr. Liebeler.
And you never found any spent bullet?
Mr. Walthers.
No;
me and Allan Sweatt 2 or 3 days after the assassination did go back down there and make a pretty diligent search in there all up where that bullet might have hit, thinking that maybe the bullet hit the cement and laid down on some of them beams but we looked all up there and everywhere and I never did find one. I never did in all of my life tell anybody I found a bullet other than where it hit.

I mentioned that Walthers had changed his tune by the time of his WC testimony.
But, according to Gun, Walthers himself described finding this bullet and Dudson also describes a police inspector (who can only have been Walthers) describing the same thing, the discovery of a bullet in the area being searched by various officers ( which can only be the area around the manhole cover).
Why Walthers changed his tune is unknown but the photos do appear to show him reaching down to the ground and picking something up.
This bullet strike would also be the favourite candidate for the fragment of bullet that chipped the kerb near Tague cutting his cheek. Notions of bullet fragments from the head shot doing this are completely unrealistic. The cut on Tague's cheek must be accounted for and a direct, fragmenting bullet strike to the concrete part of the manhole cover is, by far, the most realistic option.