Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 8464 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #530 on: January 05, 2021, 09:20:00 PM »
You are assuming there would be an immediate radical reaction.  I personally have never had a bullet pass through my neck so I don't know what kind of immediate reaction one would have. I don't even know what it would feel like.  I don't know whether I would experience pain. I don't know if I would have an immediate sensation or a gradual sensation that became overwhelming when I tried to take my next breath.

The problem with your analysis is that we cannot see JFK for 25 frames before you say his first reaction occurs.  Yet you state with confidence that no reaction occurred earlier.  This is despite the fact that JFK already at z224 has his hands in a markedly different position than he had less than 1.5 seconds earlier and his face already appears contorted when we first see it in z225.
You point to z225 as the beginning of his reaction and the only difference between z224 and z225 is that we can see his face in the latter frame. If that is not what you are referring to, I apologize for drawing such a reasonable inference.  It seems to me that if you don't want to suggest that it is not his facial expression that shows the reaction, you have to make that clear.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the early material in this thread, the arguments for JFK's first reaction to being shot is dealt with there but I will reproduce one of the earlier posts here that covers the main points.



When trying to assess JFK's reaction to the first hit emphasis is sometimes put on the position of his right hand as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign:



The above image (z224) shows JFK beginning to emerge from behind the Stemmons sign. His right hand can be seen in a slightly raised position and can be interpreted as already reaching for his throat. However, as JFK raised and lowered his hand for waving it is often in this position:



As he passes behind the Stemmons sign JFK is just finishing a wave and it can be expected that his right hand would be in such a position as he emerges from behind the sign. As such, the right hand is an unreliable indicator of his reaction to being shot. In order to get a more accurate read on his reactions it is necessary to focus on his left hand/arm. The footage below (z169-226) shows JFK's last wave. It starts with his right arm resting on the side of the limo, elbow out, with his right hand reaching back into the limo holding his left hand, which appears to rest on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. He releases his left hand as he begins to wave with his right. His left hand stays resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. His left arm/hand stays in this position as he goes behind the sign and is still in this position as he emerges from it:



In the clip below (z224-226) we see his left hand still resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side but obscured by the top of the limo door (z224). In the next frame there is a slight movement of his left arm and hand (z225). In the final frame his elbow comes into view from behind the limo door, his hand clearly moving to his throat (z226):



This tells me JFK's first clear reaction to being shot is z226 although it is possible the reaction may begin in z225. The question is, how quickly would someone react to being shot? If a time factor can be established this can be converted into zframes and it will be possible to count these frames back from z225/226 to get a good estimate for when JFK is initially hit.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #531 on: January 06, 2021, 03:41:56 AM »

This tells me JFK's first clear reaction to being shot is z226 although it is possible the reaction may begin in z225. The question is, how quickly would someone react to being shot? If a time factor can be established this can be converted into zframes and it will be possible to count these frames back from z225/226 to get a good estimate for when JFK is initially hit.
Many said he was smiling immediately before the first shot but none said he continued smiling after. His first reaction simply have been to stop smiling while his brain tried to process what had had just happened. If so, it is quite possible that his reaction began several frames before z225 while he was behind the sign. You may recall that some witnesses in front or beside JFK said he assumed a blank look after the first shot e.g. B.J. Martin,  Charles Brehm.

As far as the time factor to react, we would need to know what he would have been sensing. There would not have been a strong impact felt because the bullet did not strike bone.  We can't assume he felt any pain immediately.  But we can say with confidence that he would have noticed that he could not breathe when he next tried to take his next breath. That could be up to a couple of seconds. If that is what he is reacting to at z227 that could put the first shot up to a couple of seconds before.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 03:55:13 AM by Andrew Mason »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #532 on: January 06, 2021, 10:35:58 PM »
Many said he was smiling immediately before the first shot but none said he continued smiling after. His first reaction simply have been to stop smiling while his brain tried to process what had had just happened. If so, it is quite possible that his reaction began several frames before z225 while he was behind the sign. You may recall that some witnesses in front or beside JFK said he assumed a blank look after the first shot e.g. B.J. Martin,  Charles Brehm.

As far as the time factor to react, we would need to know what he would have been sensing. There would not have been a strong impact felt because the bullet did not strike bone.  We can't assume he felt any pain immediately.  But we can say with confidence that he would have noticed that he could not breathe when he next tried to take his next breath. That could be up to a couple of seconds. If that is what he is reacting to at z227 that could put the first shot up to a couple of seconds before.

This is nothing more than wild speculation.

"His first reaction simply have been to stop smiling while his brain tried to process what had had just happened."

A significant trauma to a person's body usually produces a reflex reaction. This does not require any processing by the brain. You seem to be suggesting JFK requires a bit of time to work out what's going on before he decides how to react.

"We can't assume he felt any pain immediately."

Why can't we assume this? A bullet has passed through his body. True he may have gone into shock (which is a reaction) but to say that he feels pain immediately seems like a perfectly reasonable assumption (IMO)

"But we can say with confidence that he would have noticed that he could not breathe when he next tried to take his next breath. That could be up to a couple of seconds. If that is what he is reacting to at z227 that could put the first shot up to a couple of seconds before."

To infer that it may have taken him up to two seconds to realise something was wrong is really desperate. You clearly need this amount of time to make your model work but to imagine he didn't even notice he'd been shot through the throat is a stretch.
I notice you've not really tackled any of the issues I raised in my post. If you go back to it you will see JFK's left arm down by his side with his hand resting on his stomach area before he passes behind the sign. As he emerges from behind the sign his arm and hand are in exactly the same position. Within a fraction of a second his hand and arm begin to shoot up, a clear reaction to being shot. This is not speculation.
You must surely agree this radical and rapid reaction cannot be squared with a shot as early as z195

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #533 on: January 07, 2021, 07:52:42 PM »
This is nothing more than wild speculation.

"His first reaction simply have been to stop smiling while his brain tried to process what had had just happened."

A significant trauma to a person's body usually produces a reflex reaction. This does not require any processing by the brain. You seem to be suggesting JFK requires a bit of time to work out what's going on before he decides how to react.
I am not sure where you get this from. This question was asked of Dr. Shaw by WC member John McCloy (4H116):
  • "Mr. McCLOY - Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with gunshot wounds, is it
    possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it?
    Dr. SHAW - Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.
    Mr. McCLOY - Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not hit, and when
    actually he could have been hit.
    Dr. SHAW - There can be an extending. sensation and then just a gradual building up of a
    feeling of severe injury.
    Mr. McCLOY - But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction between the time of the
    impact of the bullet and the occurrence?
    Dr. SHAW - Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance such as a rib,
    usually the reaction is quite prompt."

There is an interesting side note to this provided by McCloy during the House Select Committee hearings in 1978 (3 HSCA 604-5).  He testified that during World War II he had occasion to be standing beside a soldier in a German village when the soldier was shot through the chest by a sniper (oddly enough, they were rehearsing a ceremony at the time for the arrival of the President of the United States and the soldier was playing the part of the President). The soldier simply stood there and said: “I think I am shot” and then fell over and died. McCloy said that this incident convinced him that a person could have a delayed reaction to being shot in the chest.  He said there was even a German word for it (3 HSCA 605):
  • "The Germans have a word for it. They call it the
    "nachschlag ." I believe those who had been close to places where
    people have been shot are frequently aware of a perceptible delay
    on the part of the victim in registering an awareness of the shot.

This may have been related to other Commission members and appears have been a factor in his acceptance of the single bullet theory.  I am not sure why the anecdote was thought to be relevant to Gov. Connally, since he testified that he felt the impact and described it as quite forceful.  But it might apply to JFK's neck injury since the bullet did not strike bone.

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"We can't assume he felt any pain immediately."

Why can't we assume this? A bullet has passed through his body. True he may have gone into shock (which is a reaction) but to say that he feels pain immediately seems like a perfectly reasonable assumption (IMO)
What is the basis for you saying that bullets are painful?  Even Gov. Connally who suffered a significant injury that struck bone said he felt no pain until he arrived at Parkland.  He did not even notice that he had been wounded in the thigh and wrist until he woke up after surgery.   The literature seems to bear this out. This may be because tissue is destroyed quickly, the nerve endings do not have time to send pain signals before they are gone.

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"But we can say with confidence that he would have noticed that he could not breathe when he next tried to take his next breath. That could be up to a couple of seconds. If that is what he is reacting to at z227 that could put the first shot up to a couple of seconds before."

To infer that it may have taken him up to two seconds to realise something was wrong is really desperate. You clearly need this amount of time to make your model work but to imagine he didn't even notice he'd been shot through the throat is a stretch.
I am just saying that his reaction was likely a bit more gradual than you and others suggest.  The main reaction would be to the loss of function, not pain because it is likely he felt no significant pain.  How many times per second do you breathe?  Normal is around 15-20 breaths per minute or one every three to four seconds.  If he felt no pain and if he was hit just after he filled his lungs, why would he have necessarily noticed a serious problem for a second or two until he began expelling air.  If he was hit while he was filling his lungs, he may have noticed something odd sooner but he would not necessarily have panicked due to lack of air.  The panic look is what we see starting at z227. That is why I said that the panic look at z227 could easily be a second or two after he was hit.

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I notice you've not really tackled any of the issues I raised in my post. If you go back to it you will see JFK's left arm down by his side with his hand resting on his stomach area before he passes behind the sign. As he emerges from behind the sign his arm and hand are in exactly the same position. Within a fraction of a second his hand and arm begin to shoot up, a clear reaction to being shot. This is not speculation.
You must surely agree this radical and rapid reaction cannot be squared with a shot as early as z195
I don't know how you can tell that JFK's right arm is down by his side before he passed behind the sign.  It may be. But all I can tell is that it appears to be lowered and even that is not entirely clear. If at z204 it was in the same position as we see it in z224 then he was already reacting by z204 because that position in z224 is not normal.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #534 on: January 09, 2021, 05:11:33 PM »
I don't know how you can tell that JFK's right arm is down by his side before he passed behind the sign.  It may be. But all I can tell is that it appears to be lowered and even that is not entirely clear. If at z204 it was in the same position as we see it in z224 then he was already reacting by z204 because that position in z224 is not normal.

I don't know if this a deliberate strategy on your behalf or you're just not reading what I'm posting. Just to clarify, at no point anywhere do I say JFK's right arm is down by his side. It is absolutely clear from the Z-film that JFK's right arm is resting on the limo door as he passes behind the sign and as he emerges from behind it.
The point I was making was about his left arm/hand  but you have decided to create a false argument talking about his right arm being down by his side when I was clearly talking about his left arm being down by his side. You seem to think it's not entirely clear in the Z-film but if we have a look at the two pics below we can see it's clear enough:



The pic on the left is from z183, before JFK goes behind the sign, the pic on the right, taken over two seconds later, is from z225, just after JFK emerges from behind the sign. In both pics I would like you to focus on JFK's left arm/hand. It is down by his side, the bottom part of the arm is hidden by the limo door, the left hand is resting around the stomach area. This much can be clearly seen.
Going back to my earlier post, let's take a look at the Z-film showing JFK before he passes behind the sign.

As he passes behind the Stemmons sign JFK is just finishing a wave and it can be expected that his right hand would be in such a position as he emerges from behind the sign. As such, the right hand is an unreliable indicator of his reaction to being shot. In order to get a more accurate read on his reactions it is necessary to focus on his left hand/arm. The footage below (z169-226) shows JFK's last wave. It starts with his right arm resting on the side of the limo, elbow out, with his right hand reaching back into the limo holding his left hand, which appears to rest on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. He releases his left hand as he begins to wave with his right. His left hand stays resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side. His left arm/hand stays in this position as he goes behind the sign and is still in this position as he emerges from it:



It is perfectly clear in the clip above that as JFK begins to wave with his right hand his left arm stays down by his side, his left hand resting near his stomach area. This is perfectly discernable. In the pic above from z225 we see his left arm/hand is in exactly the same position as he emerges from behind the sign. The importance of the position of his left arm/hand will soon become apparent.

We both agree that the first shot strikes JFK, passing through his throat. JFK's reaction to this shot is quite startling - his hands clench into fists which he jams under his chin area as his elbows fly up in the air in quite an extraordinary fashion, his whole upper body becoming temporarily rigid before relaxing slightly. It is a really extreme and rapid reaction:



It really is an extraordinary and profound reaction. There can be little argument it is a reaction to being shot. The pic below shows how extreme the reaction is:



This pic is from z232. As we have seen, at z225 JFK's left arm is down by his side yet at z232, less than half a second later his left elbow is thrust up to what appears to be it's maximum extension (try replicating this position, I know I can get my left elbow barely any higher than JFK's and that's really trying).
Less than half a second to get his left elbow from a resting postion at his side to, what I am assuming is, it's maximum extension. Trying to do this with a conscious effort is barely possible but in JFK's case, this is done from a resting position with no expectation that this reaction will be happening. From a completely relaxed state to rigidity in less than half a second.

So when does this extreme reaction begin? Let's return to my earlier post:

In the clip below (z224-226) we see his left hand still resting on his stomach area, his left elbow down by his side but obscured by the top of the limo door (z224). In the next frame there is a slight movement of his left arm and hand (z225). In the final frame his elbow comes into view from behind the limo door, his hand clearly moving to his throat (z226):



It is clear from the above frames that this extreme movement of JFK's left arm can be seen most obviously in z226, when his left elbow, which has been hidden from view by the limo door up to this point, suddenly comes into view. We can say with little doubt that JFK's extreme reaction has begun by z226. Elsewhere I've argued that the very first reaction begins at z225 (JFK's "Hand Snap").

The Z-film shows an extraordinary and extreme reaction to being shot. It begins at z225. Before this point in the film there is nothing - absolutely nothing - that even hints at such an extreme reaction. As JFK begins his last wave he turns and smiles towards the people to his right. His finishes waving and is bringing his hand back down and turning slightly forward as he passes behind the sign. Perfectly normal actions. His left arm is down by his side for, what may well be, the duration of the Z-film from z133 to z225. Within less than half a second his left elbow rockets up from a relaxed position down by his side to it's maximum extension. I believe it is a reflex reaction to a massive trauma. I also strongly suspect that the bullet which passed through JFK's body may well have severed a nerve that runs the length of his arms down into his fingers.
Whatever the case, there is nothing in the Z-film that is remotely comparable to the extreme reaction to being hit by the first shot prior to z224. Arguments about slight head turns or what might have gone on behind the sign are redundant as we get to see the full extent of JFK's reaction by monitoring the position of his left arm.
I present more evidence and arguments that support this conclusion but that's enough for now.
I hope I've convinced you that this rapid and extreme reaction could not have come from a hit two seconds earlier, which is an eternity when considering such reactions


« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 05:15:19 PM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #535 on: January 11, 2021, 03:04:15 PM »
I don't know if this a deliberate strategy on your behalf or you're just not reading what I'm posting. Just to clarify, at no point anywhere do I say JFK's right arm is down by his side. It is absolutely clear from the Z-film that JFK's right arm is resting on the limo door as he passes behind the sign and as he emerges from behind it.
I was responding to your statement that in z224 his right arm was in a normal position so it could not be an indicator of a reaction.  I agree that his left hand/arm is about where it was before the first shot, e.g. z193. But I disagree that his right arm and right hand was in a normal position in z224. It was not in the same position it was in before the first shot. You had said:
Quote from: Dan O'meara
His right hand can be seen in a slightly raised position and can be interpreted as already reaching for his throat. However, as JFK raised and lowered his hand for waving it is often in this position:



As he passes behind the Stemmons sign JFK is just finishing a wave and it can be expected that his right hand would be in such a position as he emerges from behind the sign. As such, the right hand is an unreliable indicator of his reaction to being shot.
It appears to me that in z224 JFK is already reacting because his right hand is in a semi-clenched position   And if there is anything to doubt about that we can see it from his fully clenched right hand and facial expression that is already showing reaction in z225.  But we cannot determine when he first visibly reacts because we cannot see anything for the second prior, from z207 to z223. It could be that his reaction begins when he turns forward just before he disappears behind the sign by z207 and that it started gradually and built up to the gagging we see at z227 and after.  That could be due to the accumulation of blood in the wind pipe or the interference with breathing when he took his next breath.  We don't know when his reaction began except that it began sometime between z193 and z224.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #536 on: January 13, 2021, 07:53:57 AM »
I was responding to your statement that in z224 his right arm was in a normal position so it could not be an indicator of a reaction.  I agree that his left hand/arm is about where it was before the first shot, e.g. z193. But I disagree that his right arm and right hand was in a normal position in z224. It was not in the same position it was in before the first shot. You had said:It appears to me that in z224 JFK is already reacting because his right hand is in a semi-clenched position   And if there is anything to doubt about that we can see it from his fully clenched right hand and facial expression that is already showing reaction in z225.  But we cannot determine when he first visibly reacts because we cannot see anything for the second prior, from z207 to z223. It could be that his reaction begins when he turns forward just before he disappears behind the sign by z207 and that it started gradually and built up to the gagging we see at z227 and after.  That could be due to the accumulation of blood in the wind pipe or the interference with breathing when he took his next breath.  We don't know when his reaction began except that it began sometime between z193 and z224.

I'm really surprised you've decided to adopt a strategy of misrepresenting what I'm saying in order to avoid the arguments I'm putting forward. It seems totally unreasonable but I will put the argument forward again as I believe it 's of great importance in determining when JFK was first hit.
I have clearly been talking about monitoring the position and movement of JFK's left arm/hand in order to determine when JFK first reacts to being hit. It is JFK's left arm/hand that hold the key to understanding when JFK first reacts to being hit. But you keep trying to turn it into an argument about his right arm/hand (which I will turn to shortly).

It seems to me JFK spends a lot of the motorcade sat in this position:



He is sat right in the corner, his right arm over the side of the limo, his left arm down by his side. It seems comfortable and his right hand is free to wave at the crowd as he passes. In the clip from the Z-film below (z133-162) we see JFK's left arm is down by his side from the outset. JFK brushes his hair with his right hand then clasps his left hand, his left arm being down by his side:



JFK's left arm remains down by his side as he passes behind the side:



For the duration of the Z-film (that shows the presidential limo), until he passes behind the sign, JFK's left arm is down by his side.
As he emerges from behind the sign his left arm is in the same position (this pic is from z225):



Then, within a fraction of a second, we see his left elbow rocket up in an extraordinary way. We both agree that the first shot strikes JFK, passing through his throat. JFK's reaction to this shot is quite startling - his hands clench into fists which he jams under his chin area as his elbows fly up in the air in quite an extraordinary fashion, his whole upper body becoming temporarily rigid before relaxing slightly. It is a really extreme and rapid reaction:



It really is an extraordinary and profound reaction. There can be little argument it is a reaction to being shot. The pic below shows how extreme the reaction is:



This pic is from z232. As we have seen, at z225 JFK's left arm is down by his side yet at z232, less than half a second later his left elbow is thrust up to what appears to be it's maximum extension (try replicating this position, I know I can get my left elbow barely any higher than JFK's and that's really trying).
Less than half a second to get his left elbow from a resting postion at his side to, what I am assuming is, it's maximum extension. Trying to do this with a conscious effort is barely possible but in JFK's case, this is done from a resting position with no expectation that this reaction will be happening. From a completely relaxed state to rigidity in less than half a second.

This incredibly rapid reaction, when we have seen his left arm is down by his side for the duration of the Z-film up to z225, is indicative of a reflex reaction to being shot.









Offline Robin Unger

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #537 on: January 13, 2021, 12:52:35 PM »
Zapruder frames from JFK the movie.


Offline Robin Unger

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #538 on: January 13, 2021, 01:01:18 PM »
Altgens 6 crop ( Z-255 )


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #539 on: January 13, 2021, 02:43:28 PM »
I'm really surprised you've decided to adopt a strategy of misrepresenting what I'm saying in order to avoid the arguments I'm putting forward. It seems totally unreasonable but I will put the argument forward again as I believe it 's of great importance in determining when JFK was first hit.

I have clearly been talking about monitoring the position and movement of JFK's left arm/hand in order to determine when JFK first reacts to being hit. It is JFK's left arm/hand that hold the key to understanding when JFK first reacts to being hit. But you keep trying to turn it into an argument about his right arm/hand (which I will turn to shortly).
I am sorry you think that I am misrepresenting anything and/or avoiding the arguments you put forward. If I understand you correctly, you seem to think that the sudden apparent gagging action seen beginning at z226 or z227 is the beginning of any reaction. I strongly disagree and I am explaining why. I am saying that we simply cannot tell when his reaction began because when he first emerges from behind the sign he is already reacting.  I am not sure why you do not respond to this point.

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It really is an extraordinary and profound reaction. There can be little argument it is a reaction to being shot. The pic below shows how extreme the reaction is:
I agree. I am just saying that he is also reacting, in a less demonstrative manner, before then. I am also saying that this gradual reaction prior to z227 is apparent when he is first seen after appearing from behind the sign so we cannot tell when that reaction began.

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This incredibly rapid reaction, when we have seen his left arm is down by his side for the duration of the Z-film up to z225, is indicative of a reflex reaction to being shot.
Yes. I agree. It is just not his first reaction to being shot.  What appears to be a gag reflex is definitely a response to the injury he has sustained but it is just not his first response. He is responding by z224 to a gradual sense of his injury and then starts to gag.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 02:44:05 PM by Andrew Mason »

 

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