The First Shot

[Andrew Mason]

I don't know if this a deliberate strategy on your behalf or you're just not reading what I'm posting. Just to clarify, at no point anywhere do I say JFK's right arm is down by his side. It is absolutely clear from the Z-film that JFK's right arm is resting on the limo door as he passes behind the sign and as he emerges from behind it.

I was responding to your statement that in z224 his right arm was in a normal position so it could not be an indicator of a reaction.  I agree that his left hand/arm is about where it was before the first shot, e.g. z193. But I disagree that his right arm and right hand was in a normal position in z224. It was not in the same position it was in before the first shot. You had said:

His right hand can be seen in a slightly raised position and can be interpreted as already reaching for his throat. However, as JFK raised and lowered his hand for waving it is often in this position:



As he passes behind the Stemmons sign JFK is just finishing a wave and it can be expected that his right hand would be in such a position as he emerges from behind the sign. As such, the right hand is an unreliable indicator of his reaction to being shot.

It appears to me that in z224 JFK is already reacting because his right hand is in a semi-clenched position   And if there is anything to doubt about that we can see it from his fully clenched right hand and facial expression that is already showing reaction in z225.  But we cannot determine when he first visibly reacts because we cannot see anything for the second prior, from z207 to z223. It could be that his reaction begins when he turns forward just before he disappears behind the sign by z207 and that it started gradually and built up to the gagging we see at z227 and after.  That could be due to the accumulation of blood in the wind pipe or the interference with breathing when he took his next breath.  We don't know when his reaction began except that it began sometime between z193 and z224.

[Dan O'meara]

I was responding to your statement that in z224 his right arm was in a normal position so it could not be an indicator of a reaction.  I agree that his left hand/arm is about where it was before the first shot, e.g. z193. But I disagree that his right arm and right hand was in a normal position in z224. It was not in the same position it was in before the first shot. You had said:It appears to me that in z224 JFK is already reacting because his right hand is in a semi-clenched position   And if there is anything to doubt about that we can see it from his fully clenched right hand and facial expression that is already showing reaction in z225.  But we cannot determine when he first visibly reacts because we cannot see anything for the second prior, from z207 to z223. It could be that his reaction begins when he turns forward just before he disappears behind the sign by z207 and that it started gradually and built up to the gagging we see at z227 and after.  That could be due to the accumulation of blood in the wind pipe or the interference with breathing when he took his next breath.  We don't know when his reaction began except that it began sometime between z193 and z224.

I'm really surprised you've decided to adopt a strategy of misrepresenting what I'm saying in order to avoid the arguments I'm putting forward. It seems totally unreasonable but I will put the argument forward again as I believe it 's of great importance in determining when JFK was first hit.
I have clearly been talking about monitoring the position and movement of JFK's left arm/hand in order to determine when JFK first reacts to being hit. It is JFK's left arm/hand that hold the key to understanding when JFK first reacts to being hit. But you keep trying to turn it into an argument about his right arm/hand (which I will turn to shortly).

It seems to me JFK spends a lot of the motorcade sat in this position:



He is sat right in the corner, his right arm over the side of the limo, his left arm down by his side. It seems comfortable and his right hand is free to wave at the crowd as he passes. In the clip from the Z-film below (z133-162) we see JFK's left arm is down by his side from the outset. JFK brushes his hair with his right hand then clasps his left hand, his left arm being down by his side:



JFK's left arm remains down by his side as he passes behind the side:



For the duration of the Z-film (that shows the presidential limo), until he passes behind the sign, JFK's left arm is down by his side.
As he emerges from behind the sign his left arm is in the same position (this pic is from z225):



Then, within a fraction of a second, we see his left elbow rocket up in an extraordinary way. We both agree that the first shot strikes JFK, passing through his throat. JFK's reaction to this shot is quite startling - his hands clench into fists which he jams under his chin area as his elbows fly up in the air in quite an extraordinary fashion, his whole upper body becoming temporarily rigid before relaxing slightly. It is a really extreme and rapid reaction:



It really is an extraordinary and profound reaction. There can be little argument it is a reaction to being shot. The pic below shows how extreme the reaction is:



This pic is from z232. As we have seen, at z225 JFK's left arm is down by his side yet at z232, less than half a second later his left elbow is thrust up to what appears to be it's maximum extension (try replicating this position, I know I can get my left elbow barely any higher than JFK's and that's really trying).
Less than half a second to get his left elbow from a resting postion at his side to, what I am assuming is, it's maximum extension. Trying to do this with a conscious effort is barely possible but in JFK's case, this is done from a resting position with no expectation that this reaction will be happening. From a completely relaxed state to rigidity in less than half a second.

This incredibly rapid reaction, when we have seen his left arm is down by his side for the duration of the Z-film up to z225, is indicative of a reflex reaction to being shot.

[Robin Unger]

Zapruder frames from JFK the movie.

[Robin Unger]

Altgens 6 crop ( Z-255 )

[Andrew Mason]

I'm really surprised you've decided to adopt a strategy of misrepresenting what I'm saying in order to avoid the arguments I'm putting forward. It seems totally unreasonable but I will put the argument forward again as I believe it 's of great importance in determining when JFK was first hit.

I have clearly been talking about monitoring the position and movement of JFK's left arm/hand in order to determine when JFK first reacts to being hit. It is JFK's left arm/hand that hold the key to understanding when JFK first reacts to being hit. But you keep trying to turn it into an argument about his right arm/hand (which I will turn to shortly).

I am sorry you think that I am misrepresenting anything and/or avoiding the arguments you put forward. If I understand you correctly, you seem to think that the sudden apparent gagging action seen beginning at z226 or z227 is the beginning of any reaction. I strongly disagree and I am explaining why. I am saying that we simply cannot tell when his reaction began because when he first emerges from behind the sign he is already reacting.  I am not sure why you do not respond to this point.

It really is an extraordinary and profound reaction. There can be little argument it is a reaction to being shot. The pic below shows how extreme the reaction is:

I agree. I am just saying that he is also reacting, in a less demonstrative manner, before then. I am also saying that this gradual reaction prior to z227 is apparent when he is first seen after appearing from behind the sign so we cannot tell when that reaction began.

This incredibly rapid reaction, when we have seen his left arm is down by his side for the duration of the Z-film up to z225, is indicative of a reflex reaction to being shot.

Yes. I agree. It is just not his first reaction to being shot.  What appears to be a gag reflex is definitely a response to the injury he has sustained but it is just not his first response. He is responding by z224 to a gradual sense of his injury and then starts to gag.

[Dan O'meara]

I am sorry you think that I am misrepresenting anything and/or avoiding the arguments you put forward. If I understand you correctly, you seem to think that the sudden apparent gagging action seen beginning at z226 or z227 is the beginning of any reaction. I strongly disagree and I am explaining why. I am saying that we simply cannot tell when his reaction began because when he first emerges from behind the sign he is already reacting.  I am not sure why you do not respond to this point.

 

You're unbelievable. You start by apologising for misrepresenting and avoiding my arguments.
In the very next sentence you misrepresent and avoid my arguments - for the third time!!

"If I understand you correctly, you seem to think that the sudden apparent gagging action seen beginning at z226 or z227"

Nowhere have I mentioned an "apparent gagging action",
You have completely made this up (for the third time)
You then "strongly disagree" with this point you've just made up, avoiding the arguments I have presented (for the third time)

Earlier in the thread Jerry gave the impression you were some kind of slippery customer.
I thought it was harsh at the time but I'm starting to get it.

[Andrew Mason]

You're unbelievable. You start by apologising for misrepresenting and avoiding my arguments.
In the very next sentence you misrepresent and avoid my arguments - for the third time!!

"If I understand you correctly, you seem to think that the sudden apparent gagging action seen beginning at z226 or z227"

Nowhere have I mentioned an "apparent gagging action",
You have completely made this up (for the third time)
You then "strongly disagree" with this point you've just made up, avoiding the arguments I have presented (for the third time)

First of all, I apologized if I did not make myself clear and left you the impression that I misrepresented something.  I never intended to misrepresent anything.  I did not apologize for intending to misrepresent what you said. 

Second, I assumed that the obvious gagging action that we see JFK doing beginning at z226 or z227 which you refer to as a "reflex" means that you were referring to a gag reflex.  If I am incorrect in this, it was not because I was trying to misrepresent what you said. It was my understanding based on what you had written. 

Earlier in the thread Jerry gave the impression you were some kind of slippery customer.
I thought it was harsh at the time but I'm starting to get it.

Jerry thinks all lawyers are slippery.  I am not sure what experience he has had with lawyers, probably very little.  I think you should look at my arguments and not try to resort to ad hominem epithets.  It gives the impression of a last resort in a losing argument.

Now if you would stop avoiding the very simple point that I am making that would contradict the point you are trying to make, it would be appreciated.  "How can you determine that JFK is NOT reacting before z224 when he is obviously reacting at z225, which is very similar to z224, and we cannot see him except his left hand in z223 and do not see him at all between z207 and z223?"  Simple question.