The First Shot

[Jerry Organ]

What do you make of the evidence of Phillip Willis who said that his z204 photo was taken a fraction of a second after the sound of the first shot?

Phil Willis was a car salesman who was promoting the commercial set of slides he took in Dealey Plaza that day, so he could have said the sound of the shot made him click the shutter, when there was truthfully some time between hearing the shot and snapping the shutter. Thus he could claim he had a slide at the moment Kennedy was shot. Willis said the shot caused Mrs. Kennedy to turn from her left to her right:

    "Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right
      toward him and he more or less slumped forward."

In Willis' Z202 slide, Mrs. Kennedy has already performed the reaction to the first shot (she appears in the slide turned towards the President). Willis himself seemed to think the President had grab his throat in his slide (though hidden from his vantage point):

     Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made?

     Mr. WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the
          first shot was fired. As a matter of fact, the fellow standing
          on the ledge under the right-hand corner of the Stemmons
          Highway sign is a gentleman who took the last pictures that
          appeared in Life, and his pictures showed that this instant
          with this sign in between the photographer and the President,
          shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his throat.

What do you make of the turning of Rosemary Willis' head from z200-207:

Rosemary said she stopped after hearing the first shot. She does that before Z200.

What do you make of Jack Ready removing his right hand from the front hand-hold at z199 and beginning to turn his head to the right?  He said he turned around in response to the first shot: 18 H 749:
"I heard what appeared to be fire-crackers going off from my position. I immediately turned to my right rear trying to locate the source but was not able to determine the exact location."

Nothing burger. His head first turns to his right earlier. He's balanced on the running board and couldn't instantaneously turn to his rear.

What do you make of the statement and photograph of Hugh Betzner who said that his z186 photo was taken just before the first shot?

Betzner recalls only two shots, one after he took his photo on Elm and the head shot:

    "I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise."

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in frame 207, he continues to lower his camera and is not looking down. So Betzner winding his camera as he hears a shot isn't proof of your first shot at ca.Z200.

Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter (post-Z207), it might be that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed shot in the early-Z220s.

What do you make of the statement of Hughes that he stopped filming before the first shot? (that section of the film ends at about z180 at the latest)

That doesn't work well with your first shot occurring about one-second later because Hughes says he stopped filming about five seconds before the shots were heard. Now in my scenario, he might not have been alarmed at a first shot in the Z150s, and instead took the hypothetical Z220s second shot for the first shot. That's about 2.25 seconds after Z180.

[John Tonkovich]

Phil Willis was a car salesman who was promoting the commercial set of slides he took in Dealey Plaza that day, so he could have said the sound of the shot made him click the shutter, when there was truthfully some time between hearing the shot and snapping the shutter. Thus he could claim he had a slide at the moment Kennedy was shot. Willis said the shot caused Mrs. Kennedy to turn from her left to her right:

    "Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right
      toward him and he more or less slumped forward."

In Willis' Z202 slide, Mrs. Kennedy has already performed the reaction to the first shot (she appears in the slide turned towards the President). Willis himself seemed to think the President had grab his throat in his slide (though hidden from his vantage point):

     Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made?

     Mr. WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the
          first shot was fired. As a matter of fact, the fellow standing
          on the ledge under the right-hand corner of the Stemmons
          Highway sign is a gentleman who took the last pictures that
          appeared in Life, and his pictures showed that this instant
          with this sign in between the photographer and the President,
          shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his throat.

Rosemary said she stopped after hearing the first shot. She does that before Z200.

Nothing burger. His head first turns to his right earlier. He's balanced on the running board and couldn't instantaneously turn to his rear.

Betzner recalls only two shots, one after he took his photo on Elm and the head shot:

    "I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise."

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in frame 207, he continues to lower his camera and is not looking down. So Betzner winding his camera as he hears a shot isn't proof of your first shot at ca.Z200.

Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter (post-Z207), it might be that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed shot in the early-Z220s.

That doesn't work well with your first shot occurring about one-second later because Hughes says he stopped filming about five seconds before the shots were heard. Now in my scenario, he might not have been alarmed at a first shot in the Z150s, and instead took the hypothetical Z220s second shot for the first shot. That's about 2.25 seconds after Z180.

Odd then, that the first two West surveys pinpoint a first hit at Z207, a second hit  at z312, and the third hit at "stationing point 4+95". Care to explain exhibit WC exhibit ce 875?
Arlen and friends let the cat out of the bag.

[Dan O'meara]

What's "testable" about "both Connally and JFK were shot through at z223" made as an absolute statement of fact based upon nothing other than "looks that way to me".

This is like you insisting that an ink-blot is an image of two dogs fighting and in order to "contribute", I have to make up a story about it being a squirrel on a fencepost instead of just pointing out that it's an inkblot.

More misrepresentation from the man who never misrepresents my work.
You lack the courage to take on the work and all the arguments I present on this thread.
Instead you misrepresent the whole thread with some asinine, meaningless lie.
Then complain about how you can't contribute.
You seem to forget that the forum is a record of the ideas presented here. Anyone can go to the beginning of this thread and read through it. Whether they agree or not they will see the work I've put in and the spineless, childish little 'contributions' by yourself.

[Andrew Mason]

Phil Willis was a car salesman who was promoting the commercial set of slides he took in Dealey Plaza that day,...


.....Rosemary said she stopped after hearing the first shot. She does that before Z200.

....Betzner recalls only two shots, one after he took his photo on Elm and the head shot:

    "I started to wind my film again and I heard a loud noise."

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in frame 207, he continues to lower his camera and is not looking down. So Betzner winding his camera as he hears a shot isn't proof of your first shot at ca.Z200.

...[Hughes]..
That doesn't work well with your first shot occurring about one-second later because Hughes says he stopped filming about five seconds before the shots were heard. Now in my scenario, he might not have been alarmed at a first shot in the Z150s, and instead took the hypothetical Z220s second shot for the first shot. That's about 2.25 seconds after Z180.

I see.  So these witnesses:

• Betzner taking his photo at z186 and recalling that it was before the first shot;
• Rosemary Willis suddenly turning her head from z200-207 toward the TSBD, which she said she did on hearing the first shot (her feet stop at z198, by the way).
  
• Phil Willis recalling that his photo was taken an instant after the first shot
• Hughes recalling a pause after stopping filming and the sound of the first shot (this sequence ends with the rear wheel of the president's limo passing where JFK passed at z160 so that looks like about z168 to me).
• And Jack Ready removing his right hand from the front hand-hold as he begins to turn and as he said he did in response to the first shot

were all wrong because their recollections do not fit with the early first shot miss at z150-160 that you hypothesize.

What about all the witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot (20+) by moving left, changing expression, clutching his chest/neck?  Where are the witnesses who recalled JFK smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds after the first shot? (z150-z207)  Where are they Jerry?[/list]

[Jerry Organ]

I see.  So these witnesses:


• Betzner taking his photo at z186 and recalling that it was before the first shot;

Betzner said the shot he heard after taking his picture was followed by the head shot. Here's my earlier reply:

     As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in frame 207, he
     continues to lower his camera and is not looking down.
     So Betzner winding his camera as he hears a shot isn't
     proof of your first shot at ca.Z200.

     Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter (post-Z207),
     it might be that the shot he heard while winding the camera
     was the proposed shot in the early-Z220s.

• Rosemary Willis suddenly turning her head from z200-207 toward the TSBD, which she said she did on hearing the first shot (her feet stop at z198, by the way).

You have to allow a few seconds for someone running to fully stop. Or is her skid marks still in Dealey Plaza?

• Phil Willis recalling that his photo was taken an instant after the first shot

Willis would always work in that the shot caused him to snap the picture, as if it was a selling point. He testified at the Shaw Trial:

    "Well, after having photographed the President on Main Street and
     on Houston Street and then in front of the Depository Building on
     Elm Street I cocked my camera for another picture and this loud
     shot went off and the first reaction was that could it be a crank or a
     firecracker but it was so loud and of such a sound it had to be rifle
     so I became alarmed. I was trying to take a picture at the moment
     and the reflex from the shot caused me to take one of these pictures."

Willis initially says he had just cocked his camera when he heard the first shot and that he enough time to analyze the shot and that it was only after he became alarmed that he took the picture. Also revealing that Willis before the Commission said the first shot caused Mrs. Kennedy to turn her head from his side of the street to the opposite side (she does this in the Z170s) and that she had already made that head turn in Willis' slide.

• Hughes recalling a pause after stopping filming and the sound of the first shot (this sequence ends with the rear wheel of the president's limo passing where JFK passed at z160 so that looks like about z168 to me).

You're trying to expand the time between when Hughes stopped filming and when he heard the first  shot ("about five seconds after I quit taking pictures we heard the shots" Hughes wrote in a letter to his parents). That's probably because the real span between when Hughes stopped filming and when your proposed first shot occurred is about one-second. So you now are trying to move back when Hughes stopped filming from Z185 (Myers) to Z168, about one second. So there's now a two-second span between when Hughes stopped (at Z168 per your claim) and your proposed first shot in the Z200 area. That better relates to the five-second span Hughes described.

But I think you are confusing the point when Hughes stopped filming the limousine and Queen Mary turning onto Elm (about 3.3 seconds before Z133). Myers estimated the stop in filming lasts for 37 frames (about two seconds). When Hughes resumes (about 1 1/4 seconds before Z133), his camera picks up the camera cars along Houston. This is the sequence that ends at Z185.

Sequence		Frames		Zapruder Film
JFK Turning onto Elm		87 (4.75 sec)		8.1 to 3.3 sec before Z133
Stopped Filming		37 (2 sec)		3.3 to 1.26 sec before Z133
Camera Cars on Houston		75 (4.1 sec)		1.26 sec before Z133 plus 2.84 sec to Z185

If Hughes was referring to the stop in filming he made when the Presidential car went out of view, then it is about four seconds to a shot in the Z150s. To your first shot is about seven seconds.

But it Hughes was referring to the stop in filming at Z185, I proposed a scenario where Hughes might not have been alarmed at a first shot in the Z150s, and instead took the hypothetical Z220s second shot for the first shot. That's about 2.25 seconds after Z180, but less than a second to the start of the Z200s.

• And Jack Ready removing his right hand from the front hand-hold as he begins to turn and as he said he did in response to the first shot

He said the first thing he did was turn his head. He didn't say anything about his hands. He could only turn his head so far without having to adjust his handhold for safety.


We need to look for when Ready began his rightward head-turn. To assist newbies, Ready is standing front on the camera-left running board of the large Cadillac following Kennedy's limousine.

were all wrong because their recollections do not fit with the early first shot miss at z150-160 that you hypothesize.

I believe I made an effort to see how well they fit with both our scenarios.

What about all the witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot (20+) by moving left, changing expression, clutching his chest/neck?

    "My recollection tells me that I've taken apart your "over 20 witnesses
     said that JFK reacted to the first shot" claim before. More than once."
          -- Tim Nickerson

Andrew, we've gone though your "reaction" witnesses many times here on the Forum. Many of your witnesses weren't even in a position to see the front of Kennedy's body or his hands, and so forth.

Where are the witnesses who recalled JFK smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds after the first shot? (z150-z207)  Where are they Jerry?

Mary Woodward said the President did not react (other than look around) to the first shot and that he "slumped" on the second shot, which was followed by the head shot. You dismiss her because she was "hazy" and had collapsed from shock.[/list]

[Dan O'meara]

I see.  So these witnesses:


• Betzner taking his photo at z186 and recalling that it was before the first shot;
• Rosemary Willis suddenly turning her head from z200-207 toward the TSBD, which she said she did on hearing the first shot (her feet stop at z198, by the way).
  
• Phil Willis recalling that his photo was taken an instant after the first shot
• Hughes recalling a pause after stopping filming and the sound of the first shot (this sequence ends with the rear wheel of the president's limo passing where JFK passed at z160 so that looks like about z168 to me).
• And Jack Ready removing his right hand from the front hand-hold as he begins to turn and as he said he did in response to the first shot
were all wrong because their recollections do not fit with the early first shot miss at z150-160 that you hypothesize.

What about all the witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot (20+) by moving left, changing expression, clutching his chest/neck?  Where are the witnesses who recalled JFK smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds after the first shot? (z150-z207)  Where are they Jerry?

Hi Andrew, I certainly have to agree that the available evidence rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The opening post of this thread focusses on the SS follow-up car behind the Presidential limo and compares it to the clear reactions of the SS agents in Altgens 6. Rufus Youngblood describes the first shot as an 'explosive noise', agents Ready and  Landis describe reacting 'immediately' but in the Z-film, which shows these agents up to z207 no such reaction can be seen. For me this certainly rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The same clip also shows Rosemary Willis 'reacting' to the sound of a shot while a carload of SS agents show no reaction. I find this highly unlikely.
You make a point about Jack Ready but the Z-film, as I see it, doesn't show Ready distinctly turning to his right. He looks to his left then slowly moves his head right but we certainly don't see him turning to his "right rear". To me it looks like a perfectly normal head turn as he scans the crowd.
I'm not 100% sure about the points you're making about Betzner and Hughes (I'm possibly being a bit slow here)
Phil Willis comes across as a credible witness who seems to 'timestamp' the moment of the first shot but I personally would like more evidence that backs up his statement as it's not enough to rely on a single witness.
The problem with this issue is that there are so many contradictory 'ear-witness' statements. On his website, Pat Speers analyses a comprehensive list of witnesses relating to the assassination:

"...we’ve looked at the words of 293 witnesses to see if they add up to something. Of this 293, 88 failed to tell us much that would indicate when and how the shots were fired. Of the remaining 205, 102 made statements suggesting there were three shots fired, with the first shot being heard between Z-190 and Z-224 and the last 2 shots being heard in rapid succession after a short pause. Another 57 made statements suggesting that the first shot was heard between Z-190 and Z-224, but made no statements indicating the last two shots were bunched together. Another 13 heard the last two shots fired closely together, and yet another could only swear to hearing two shots, but thought there may have been a third, which was wholly consistent with the last two being fired closely together. This means that 173 of the 205 witnesses described the shots in a relatively consistent manner. Of the remaining 32, 18 heard four or more shots, and another 3 made statements indicating there was a shot after the head shot."


My challenge is to get, what I believe to be, the best fit between the ear-witness statements and any evidence that can be gleaned from photographic/video evidence.

[John Tonkovich]

Hi Andrew, I certainly have to agree that the available evidence rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The opening post of this thread focusses on the SS follow-up car behind the Presidential limo and compares it to the clear reactions of the SS agents in Altgens 6. Rufus Youngblood describes the first shot as an 'explosive noise', agents Ready and  Landis describe reacting 'immediately' but in the Z-film, which shows these agents up to z270 no such reaction can be seen. For me this certainly rules out a shot as early as z150-160.
The same clip also shows Rosemary Willis 'reacting' to the sound of a shot while a carload of SS agents show no reaction. I find this highly unlikely.
You make a point about Jack Ready but the Z-film, as I see it, doesn't show Ready distinctly turning to his right. He looks to his left then slowly moves his head right but we certainly don't see him turning to his "right rear". To me it looks like a perfectly normal head turn as he scans the crowd.
I'm not 100% sure about the points you're making about Betzner and Hughes (I'm possibly being a bit slow here)
Phil Willis comes across as a credible witness who seems to 'timestamp' the moment of the first shot but I personally would like more evidence that backs up his statement as it's not enough to rely on a single witness.
The problem with this issue is that there are so many contradictory 'ear-witness' statements. On his website, Pat Speers analyses a comprehensive list of witnesses relating to the assassination:

"...we’ve looked at the words of 293 witnesses to see if they add up to something. Of this 293, 88 failed to tell us much that would indicate when and how the shots were fired. Of the remaining 205, 102 made statements suggesting there were three shots fired, with the first shot being heard between Z-190 and Z-224 and the last 2 shots being heard in rapid succession after a short pause. Another 57 made statements suggesting that the first shot was heard between Z-190 and Z-224, but made no statements indicating the last two shots were bunched together. Another 13 heard the last two shots fired closely together, and yet another could only swear to hearing two shots, but thought there may have been a third, which was wholly consistent with the last two being fired closely together. This means that 173 of the 205 witnesses described the shots in a relatively consistent manner. Of the remaining 32, 18 heard four or more shots, and another 3 made statements indicating there was a shot after the head shot."


My challenge is to get, what I believe to be, the best fit between the ear-witness statements and any evidence that can be gleaned from photographic/video evidence.

Altgens is your friend. ( Or should be.)
Please review his testimony. Thx.

[Dan O'meara]

Altgens is your friend. ( Or should be.)
Please review his testimony. Thx.

I'm aware you put a lot of stock in Altgens' testimony but I don't understand why. He describes taking a photo just after the first 'noise'. As I understand it he is describing Altgens 6, a photo taken just after the first audible shot. He then goes on to describe the shot at z313. I'm not sure what you're reading in his testimony that I'm missing.