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Author Topic: The First Shot  (Read 118526 times)

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #568 on: January 19, 2021, 10:29:39 PM »
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The bullet passed between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, close to the spinal column.
This is confirmed by a fracture found in JFK's spine:
“There is an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1 (or the region of the costovertebral junction)”

 Quote from the report of the HSCA consulting radiologist, G.M. McDonnel, MD, in: HSCA vol.7: 219.
[see https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0115a.htm]

An "undisplaced" fracture is one in which the bones remain aligned indicating a glancing blow by the bullet. This may have affected the trajectory of the bullet through JFK but that is not being considered at this moment. The fracture is of the right transverse process, in accordance with the entry of the bullet slightly to the right of the spine. Looking at this diagram again (obviously the diagram is of the left side of the body but the arguments apply due to the symmetry of the body):



A bullet passing between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, glancing off the transverse process of T1, would almost inevitably sever, or at least severely damage, the nerve marked T1 in the diagram, affecting in particular the Ulnar nerve which has its roots in the "T1" (and C8) nerve. The Ulnar nerve runs the length of the arm, entering the hand where it "flexes the ring and little fingers at the distal interphalangeal joint".
A bullet severing the Ulnar nerve may cause the hand to rapidly contract, however the Ulnar nerve only controls the flexion of the ring and little fingers.
I wish I could find a clearer image than the one below but there is a very strange aspect of JFK's hands in reaction to being shot. One might expect someone to 'clutch' at their throat if they were shot there but JFK doesn't do this. Instead he appears to clench his hands into fists and thrusts them under the area of his chin.
But even this is not quite correct. A clear image ('ve seen one but can't find it at the moment) reveals that JFK appears to be 'pointing' at his throat:

 

I believe this indicates the bullet has severed his Ulnar nerve, causing some of his fingers (ring and little) to instantly clench shut but leaving his index finger unaffected and in a 'pointing' position.




« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 02:36:25 AM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #568 on: January 19, 2021, 10:29:39 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #569 on: January 20, 2021, 02:13:36 PM »
At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression.
"

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?

In order to prove that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the first reaction to being shot at z223, you have to demonstrate that he was NOT reacting before then. By suggesting that the reaction began at z226  and not before, you are saying that he is not reacting in z225. So you must be confident about that.  I'm not.

But, of course, that is not all one must establish in order to prove that the bullet struck at z223. One must have evidence that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the physical reaction that a person suffering the injury that JFK suffered would have to exhibit within 165ms to 220 ms. after being hit.  I have yet to see that kind of evidence.  That is what Lattimer was saying with his Thorburn argument.  You are not making the same kind of argument.

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Can you explain this quote from one of your previous posts:

"No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path. "

In one moment you're saying the bullet enters JFK's back above the C6 vertebra then your saying the bullet path is below C6 (below the brachial plexus.
It is clear you are willing to say whatever it takes to "win a point".
I made a correction in my subsequent post, which you must have read because you quoted it.  I said:
"Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

    "The other missile entered the right superior
    posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
    and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
    This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
    portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
    of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
    anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
    bony structures in its path through the body.""

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Constantly introducing  BS: straw man arguments, twisting and misrepresenting what is being said.
Anyone can look over the last few pages and see the contribution I am making and your own contribution.
Your model has failed - passing under the oak tree at the time of your proposed first shot, the impossible ballistics of your proposed second shot and now this - a delay of over a second and a half between being shot and the multiple extreme, rapid and co-ordinated reactions of both JFK and JBC. The speed of these physical reactions is startling, measured in milliseconds. To suggest they come after one and a half seconds is preposterous. One and a half seconds may not seem a long time but it is an eternity when dealing with such rapid reactions.
First of all, I thought we were talking about JFK's reaction after he emerges from behind the sign and whether that was unequivocal evidence of a shot at z223.  What does the tree have to do with that? 

Second, there is only a delay of a second and a half if he is not reacting at all when we can't see him.  There is only a "co-ordinated reaction of both JFK and JBC if JFK is NOT REACTING when he is not visible prior to z225.

Third, your analysis assumes that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back on the first shot.  That is not what he said occurred.  He said that his reaction to the first shot was to turn around to see JFK.  That was what Nellie said as well. So did the Newmans who were standing right there 20 feet away.  That is what the police outriders said he did as well. That is what the evidence says was JBC's reaction to the first shot.  So even by your own theory that the first shot was at z223,  JBC's reaction beginning at z228 or so is to start turning around to see JFK.  And that is exactly what he proceeds to do at that point.
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There is no sane proposal you can make that accounts for this time gap.
Weak attempts at muddying the water - maybe there was some kind of subtle reaction we can't see before z225 - cannot explain the sudden, co-ordinated rapidity of these physical reactions.
Again, they are co-ordinated only if JFK is not reacting before z226-227. 

The time gap for JBC's reaction is due to the fact, as he testified, that he was not hit in the back on the first shot so his reaction was due to the time required for his brain to process that he had just heard a rifle shot, that an assassination attempt was underway and feel concern for the President and then to start turning around to see him.

JFK's reaction was to having a bullet pass through his upper back and neck. Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #570 on: January 20, 2021, 02:19:55 PM »
The bullet passed between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, close to the spinal column.
This is confirmed by a fracture found in JFK's spine:
“There is an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1 (or the region of the costovertebral junction)”

 Quote from the report of the HSCA consulting radiologist, G.M. McDonnel, MD, in: HSCA vol.7: 219.
[see https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0115a.htm]

An "undisplaced" fracture is one in which the bones remain aligned indicating a glancing blow by the bullet. This may have affected the trajectory of the bullet through JFK but that is not being considered at this moment. The fracture is of the right transverse process, in accordance with the entry of the bullet slightly to the right of the spine. Looking at this diagram again (obviously the diagram is of the left side of the body but the arguments apply due to the symmetry of the body):



A bullet passing between the C7 and T1 vertebrae, glancing off the transverse process of T1, would almost inevitably sever, or at least severely damage, the nerve marked T1 in the diagram, affecting in particular the Ulnar nerve which has its roots in the "T1" (and C8) nerve. The Ulnar nerve runs the length of the arm, entering the hand where it "flexes the ring and little fingers at the distal interphalangeal joint".
A bullet severing the Ulnar nerve may cause the hand to rapidly contract, however the Ulnar nerve only controls the flexion of the ring and little fingers.
I wish I could find a clearer image than the one below but there is a very strange aspect of JFK's hands in reaction to being shot. One might expect someone to 'clutch' at their throat if they were shot there but JFK doesn't do this. Instead he appears to clench his hands into fists and thrusts them under the area of his chin.
But even this is not quite correct. A clear image ('ve seen one but can't find it at the moment) reveals that JFK appears to be 'pointing' at his throat:

 

I believe this indicates the bullet has severed his Ulnar nerve, causing some of his fingers (ring and little) to instantly clench shut but leaving his index finger unaffected and in a 'pointing' position.
Very good.  That could explain his curled fingers of his right hand seen in z224 that could well have begun some time prior.

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #570 on: January 20, 2021, 02:19:55 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #571 on: January 20, 2021, 08:49:47 PM »

In order to prove that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the first reaction to being shot at z223, you have to demonstrate that he was NOT reacting before then. By suggesting that the reaction began at z226  and not before, you are saying that he is not reacting in z225. So you must be confident about that.  I'm not.

But, of course, that is not all one must establish in order to prove that the bullet struck at z223. One must have evidence that the reaction beginning at z226-227 is the physical reaction that a person suffering the injury that JFK suffered would have to exhibit within 165ms to 220 ms. after being hit.  I have yet to see that kind of evidence.  That is what Lattimer was saying with his Thorburn argument.  You are not making the same kind of argument.
I made a correction in my subsequent post, which you must have read because you quoted it.  I said:
"Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

    "The other missile entered the right superior
    posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
    and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
    This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
    portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
    of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
    anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
    bony structures in its path through the body.""
First of all, I thought we were talking about JFK's reaction after he emerges from behind the sign and whether that was unequivocal evidence of a shot at z223.  What does the tree have to do with that? 

Second, there is only a delay of a second and a half if he is not reacting at all when we can't see him.  There is only a "co-ordinated reaction of both JFK and JBC if JFK is NOT REACTING when he is not visible prior to z225.

Third, your analysis assumes that JBC is reacting to being hit in the back on the first shot.  That is not what he said occurred.  He said that his reaction to the first shot was to turn around to see JFK.  That was what Nellie said as well. So did the Newmans who were standing right there 20 feet away.  That is what the police outriders said he did as well. That is what the evidence says was JBC's reaction to the first shot.  So even by your own theory that the first shot was at z223,  JBC's reaction beginning at z228 or so is to start turning around to see JFK.  And that is exactly what he proceeds to do at that point.Again, they are co-ordinated only if JFK is not reacting before z226-227. 

The time gap for JBC's reaction is due to the fact, as he testified, that he was not hit in the back on the first shot so his reaction was due to the time required for his brain to process that he had just heard a rifle shot, that an assassination attempt was underway and feel concern for the President and then to start turning around to see him.

JFK's reaction was to having a bullet pass through his upper back and neck. Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe.

The usual misrepresentation and "maybe this, maybe that" waffle.
There is one factual error that needs correcting:

"Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe."

The bullet passing through JFK fractured his T1 vertebra ("an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1"). As explained in a previous post the "undisplaced" nature of the fracture indicates a glancing blow.
I've no doubt you'll argue JFK will still have reacted "gradually" to having a vertebra fractured by a bullet ripping through his body.

Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #572 on: January 21, 2021, 12:54:04 AM »
The usual misrepresentation and "maybe this, maybe that" waffle.
There is one factual error that needs correcting:

"Since it did not strike bone, the reaction could have been a fairly immediate but gradual reaction such as facial expression and hand movement followed by the more demonstrative reaction beginning at z226 when he realized he could not breathe."

The bullet passing through JFK fractured his T1 vertebra ("an undisplaced fracture of the proximal portion of the right transverse process of T1"). As explained in a previous post the "undisplaced" nature of the fracture indicates a glancing blow.
I've no doubt you'll argue JFK will still have reacted "gradually" to having a vertebra fractured by a bullet ripping through his body.
By gradual, I mean a bit more than a second before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened.  Kind of like the soldier in John McCone's anecdote who was shot in the back and didn't understand what had just happened for several seconds and then he fell over and died.

There are not many cases of this kind to go by.  Again, bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately.  JBC is a case in point. The transverse process is the small bone protruding forward and to the right from the body of the vertebra. The bodies of the vertebrae in the spine were not injured or strained.  So you are going to need some evidence that a non-displaced fracture (ie. a crack) caused by passage of the bullet some distance away from that little bone will cause immediate pain.

Most of these kinds of injuries are the result of extreme twisting of the neck which also strains soft tissue around the cervical spine.   JBC suffered an undisplaced fracture of the fifth rib at the spine.  It was not noticed until someone examined the xrays long afterward. JBC never complained about it.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 01:00:02 AM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #572 on: January 21, 2021, 12:54:04 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #573 on: January 21, 2021, 03:10:59 AM »
By gradual, I mean a bit more than a second before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened.  Kind of like the soldier in John McCone's anecdote who was shot in the back and didn't understand what had just happened for several seconds and then he fell over and died.

There are not many cases of this kind to go by.  Again, bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately.  JBC is a case in point. The transverse process is the small bone protruding forward and to the right from the body of the vertebra. The bodies of the vertebrae in the spine were not injured or strained.  So you are going to need some evidence that a non-displaced fracture (ie. a crack) caused by passage of the bullet some distance away from that little bone will cause immediate pain.

Most of these kinds of injuries are the result of extreme twisting of the neck which also strains soft tissue around the cervical spine.   JBC suffered an undisplaced fracture of the fifth rib at the spine.  It was not noticed until someone examined the xrays long afterward. JBC never complained about it.

Andrew, I've noticed there's something you're not quite grasping about a reflex reaction. When you say things like "... before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened" or "bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately", you seem to imagine that the reaction is somehow connected to pain or what's going on in the brain.

"A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex

JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot.
JFK doesn't need to be aware of pain before he reacts to being shot.
His reaction happens automatically and is incredibly rapid.
The examples of incredibly sudden and rapid reactions I have presented fit into this category.
You have presented nothing which refutes this, just empty waffle.

It seems you will only be satisfied if I can find an experiment in which someone is voluntarily shot through the neck and has their reactions measured.


Offline Andrew Mason

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #574 on: January 21, 2021, 05:40:09 AM »
Andrew, I've noticed there's something you're not quite grasping about a reflex reaction.
When you say things like "... before he fully realizes the impact of what just happened" or "bullet wounds do not necessarily cause pain immediately", you seem to imagine that the reaction is somehow connected to pain or what's going on in the brain.
I understand that you believe that JFK was exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck.  But the problem is that there is no consensus among medical experts either that JFK's reaction is an autonomic reflex as opposed to a brain directed reaction or that the passage of the bullet through his neck that way would necessarily have triggered such a reflex reaction. Dr. Latimer is the only one who tried this approach.

Quote
JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot.
JFK doesn't need to be aware of pain before he reacts to being shot.
His reaction happens automatically and is incredibly rapid.
That is a guess on your part.  There are very few neural pathways that can trigger a reflex. The demonstrative part of the reaction that begins at z226 or 227 is as much as 220 ms after z223. Reflexes are much faster than that because the nerve signal that causes the muscles to contract (the reflex reaction) is direct - it does not come from the brain.


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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #574 on: January 21, 2021, 05:40:09 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

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Re: The First Shot
« Reply #575 on: January 21, 2021, 11:53:38 AM »
I understand that you believe that JFK was exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck.

This is correct.
My belief JFK is exhibiting a reflex reaction to the bullet passing through his neck is based on the recorded, measurable, sudden and extreme physical movements he undergoes.

Quote
But the problem is that there is no consensus among medical experts either that JFK's reaction is an autonomic reflex as opposed to a brain directed reaction or that the passage of the bullet through his neck that way would necessarily have triggered such a reflex reaction. Dr. Latimer is the only one who tried this approach.

This doesn't mean anything. So what if there's no consensus? I'm presenting measurable and extremely rapid physical movements indicative of a reflex reaction to a stimulus.

Quote
That is a guess on your part.

Read the definition of reflex reaction again -

"A reflex, or reflex action, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus. A reflex is made possible by neural pathways called reflex arcs which can act on an impulse before that impulse reaches the brain. The reflex is then an automatic response to a stimulus that does not receive or need conscious thought."

When I say "JFK doesn't have to realise something is wrong before he reacts to being shot" this is not a guess. It's an inherent part of the definition of 'reflex reaction'.

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There are very few neural pathways that can trigger a reflex.

Another meaningless statement

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The demonstrative part of the reaction that begins at z226 or 227 is as much as 220 ms after z223. Reflexes are much faster than that because the nerve signal that causes the muscles to contract (the reflex reaction) is direct - it does not come from the brain.

You do this too often for it to be accidental.
Time after time I have argued for a first reaction at z225. Here is an example from Reply #534:

"It is clear from the above frames that this extreme movement of JFK's left arm can be seen most obviously in z226, when his left elbow, which has been hidden from view by the limo door up to this point, suddenly comes into view. We can say with little doubt that JFK's extreme reaction has begun by z226. Elsewhere I've argued that the very first reaction begins at z225."

With this in mind we find you are suddenly arguing my case for me (not for the first time)
As you point out - "Reflexes are much faster than that because the nerve signal that causes the muscles to contract (the reflex reaction) is direct - it does not come from the brain."
I am arguing that JFK's first reaction to a shot at z223 can be seen at z225, a time gap of less than 110 milliseconds. Perfectly in accordance with a reflex.
The unbelievable thing is that you are pretending that I've not made this argument before.
This is something you posted (reply #550):

The "hunch" that you are going on is that the response at z225 occurs within 2 frames or 110 ms after the bullet passes through his neck.

Just another example of you twisting and turning, saying anything you need to say to 'win a point'.
You don't seem to be aware that this forum is a record of the various debates going on and the strategies you employ to undermine reasoned debate are easily revealed.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 11:57:45 AM by Dan O'meara »