The First Shot

[Charles Collins]

So how can he be a witness to the first shot missing?

He doesn’t say that he didn’t see the President’s head during the first shot either.

What makes his account point to the first shot as the one that missed is that he saw reactions (from either JFK or Jackie) associated with the last two shots. He doesn’t say that he saw JFK already in his arms up posture before the second shot; I believe that he would have said this if it was true and he saw it.

He does say (later in the interview) that he didn’t have a view of the sniper’s nest window, due to the trees and other structures between him and the TSBD, during the shooting; but that he did have a view of JFK’s head.

[Dan O'meara]

The following is an account from David V. Hardness, DPD, who was stationed at the intersection of Main and Houston very close to the position of the Hughes film camera. He appears in the Hughes film about the time of the first shot. This is from an interview of Harkness that is part of “No More Silence” by Larry A. Sneed.

I was on the northwest corner of the intersection when I saw the parade coming west on Main and making the turn onto Houston. I was looking at the President, made eye contact with him, and he waved at me. As soon as the motorcade passed, the people that were standing near the intersection where I was kind of walked back. So, when the motorcade made the turn to go down Elm Street, they went back to the grassy area there in the median between Main and Elm to get a better view of him. So I kind of followed the crowd. As the first shot rang out, then the second, I saw the President’s head jerk. Then, as the third shot was fired, Mrs. Kennedy came out of the car and was on all fours on the trunk lid of the car. At the time, I was probably 150–200 feet from the car at the edge of the grassy median between Main and Elm, not far from where my motor was parked at the intersection. The sounds were loud reports. It seemed like there was more time between the first and the second shots than between the second and the third. The second and the third were pretty close together. Due to the echo pattern in Dealey Plaza, though, I was unable to tell the direction of the shots.

It is one of the clearest indications from the eyewitnesses that the first shot was the one that missed.

"As the first shot rang out, then the second, I saw the President’s head jerk. Then, as the third shot was fired, Mrs. Kennedy came out of the car and was on all fours on the trunk lid of the car."

This is one of the clearest indications the first shot missed?
I think you'll find it's an indication the third shot missed.

He reports seeing the President's head jerk after the second shot. This surely a reference to the headshot.
In the Z-film the first shot is the throat shot but Harkness (not Hardness) is too far away and to the rear to see JFK's reaction to this (your suggestion that when witnessing a crime it's sometimes better to be further away than closer is laughable).
The second shot is the headshot (President's head jerk)
The third shot was very close to the headshot. There is a gap of about 3 seconds between the headshot and Jackie being "on all fours on the trunk lid of the car". Harkness is reporting the headshot (second shot) then a third shot just as Jackie climbs on to the trunk. This third shot, as Jackie climbs on to the trunk, comes a second or two after the headshot and is a miss (we can see from the Z-film the effects of the first shot).

Once again, a witness statement meant to support one model of the assassination has ended up supporting my own.

[Charles Collins]

"As the first shot rang out, then the second, I saw the President’s head jerk. Then, as the third shot was fired, Mrs. Kennedy came out of the car and was on all fours on the trunk lid of the car."

This is one of the clearest indications the first shot missed?
I think you'll find it's an indication the third shot missed.

He reports seeing the President's head jerk after the second shot. This surely a reference to the headshot.
In the Z-film the first shot is the throat shot but Harkness (not Hardness) is too far away and to the rear to see JFK's reaction to this (your suggestion that when witnessing a crime it's sometimes better to be further away than closer is laughable).
The second shot is the headshot (President's head jerk)
The third shot was very close to the headshot. There is a gap of about 3 seconds between the headshot and Jackie being "on all fours on the trunk lid of the car". Harkness is reporting the headshot (second shot) then a third shot just as Jackie climbs on to the trunk. This third shot, as Jackie climbs on to the trunk, comes a second or two after the headshot and is a miss (we can see from the Z-film the effects of the first shot).

Once again, a witness statement meant to support one model of the assassination has ended up supporting my own.

I thought about your scenario as it relates to Harkness’ account. His account doesn’t rule out that possibility. But I do believe that it is incompatible with the second shot missing JFK and hitting JBC. The reasons it rings true for a first shot miss (in my opinion) is that we don’t see JFK’s initial reaction to the neck shot (he is hidden from view of the Zapruder camera by the sign and already reacting before he emerges into view) so I believe that Harkness is likely describing JFK’s initial reaction to that shot; also, because Jackie reacts very swiftly after the head shot and can be seen rising out of her seat 1.6 seconds later. Harkness relates the third shot to this action. He didn’t say that the third shot occurred after she was already on the trunk; which would have necessarily been the case due to the minimum time to cycle the bolt action and aim the rifle.

I expected you to interpret Harkness’ account to support your view. But the first shot missing theory still makes the most sense to me.

[Dan O'meara]

I merely said that IF she is responding to the first shot then that would put the first shot before then.  (She later said that she looked back toward the TSBD after the first shot and she saw pigeons flying away).   YOU,  on the other hand say that such a possibility has been debunked. I was just asking you to explain why you think you have debunked the possibility that her head turn could not be a response to the first shot.

"(She later said that she looked back toward the TSBD after the first shot and she saw pigeons flying away)."

She also said she clearly saw Oswald looking out of the sniper's nest and somehow knew he was being set up. She saw smoke coming from the knoll. She saw someone firing from the storm drain.
Could she be f.o.s,?

" YOU,  on the other hand say that such a possibility has been debunked. I was just asking you to explain why you think you have debunked the possibility that her head turn could not be a response to the first shot."

This is the last time.
The reason her head turn is not a response to the first shot is because, feet away from her, their is a car full of SS agents who all testify to reacting to the first shot, some using the word 'immediately'. Not one of these agents reacts in any meaningful way to the sound of a shot. We can see Willis' so-called reaction but as she 'reacts' their is no meaningful response from any of the car full of SS agents. We can see the little girls 'reaction' and at the same time we can see none of the SS agents react. We can see both things at the same time. Both things are shown at the same time in the Z-film - little child 'reacting to shot', car full of SS agents not reacting. Both things are shown simultaneously. How can the little girl be reacting to a shot when the agents, who we can see at exactly the same time, don't react? There is a car full of SS agents, none of which react in any obvious way to the sound of a shot yet we're expected to believe that the little child running along has recognised the shot and reacted to it!!

We can't say that no SS agents reacted when we cannot see 100% of the SS agents. We can only see two of them (Hill and McIntyre) for more than half a second after the time that I suggest that the first shot occurred. And those we do see do what they said they did immediately after the first shot (Ready, Hill). McIntyre appears to  be leaning left to check the left side of the limo.  He did not provide a statement so we don't have anything to refer his actions to.

"We can't say that no SS agents reacted when we cannot see 100% of the SS agents. We can only see two of them (Hill and McIntyre) for more than half a second after the time that I suggest that the first shot occurred."

We can see all the agents at the time you propose Willis is reacting to the shot. We can see all the agents and none of them react to a shot. We can see the little girl 'reacting' and at exactly the same time we can see the agents not reacting.

"McIntyre appears to  be leaning left to check the left side of the limo.  He did not provide a statement so we don't have anything to refer his actions to."

The fact you are unaware of McIntyre's WC testimony says it all. Total incompetence

I merely disagree with your premise that they did not respond. Ready responded 5 frames earlier when he began his right turn by removing his right hand from the front handhold. Hill turned his gaze to the President and was watching him react. You seem to be expecting them to react in ways that they said they did not.

Neither Ready or Hill do anything in the Z-film that can be considered unusual or indicative of a specific reaction to a shot. Their movements are completely normal. There is nothing out of the ordinary and certainly nothing to suggest they are reacting to a shot.
For the fifth time - Ready's response to the shot was to look to his right rear. To look behind himself over his right shoulder. At no point is this, or anything remotely like it, shown in the z-film. Removing his hand from the handhold doesn't mean anything. You are making up a meaning for it.

"Hill turned his gaze to the President and was watching him react."

Again, you are completely making this up. How can you say Hill is watching the President react? You don't have a clue what he's looking at.

" You seem to be expecting them to react in ways that they said they did not."


What do you mean by this? What ways am I expecting them to react that they are not?

Landis gave a long detailed statement 8 days after the events. In his statement he said he first looked at the president. We do not see him in the zfilm after z207 at which time he is looking at the president.  When he is next seen in Altgens #5 at z255 he is looking right, toward the bystanders and TSBD. We don't know when he turned to the right between z207 and z255

I believe you are referring to Altgens 6.
Landis is not looking right, he is looking right rear. How many times must this be pointed out.

[Andrew Mason]

He doesn’t say that he didn’t see the President’s head during the first shot either.

What makes his account point to the first shot as the one that missed is that he saw reactions (from either JFK or Jackie) associated with the last two shots. He doesn’t say that he saw JFK already in his arms up posture before the second shot; I believe that he would have said this if it was true and he saw it.

He does say (later in the interview) that he didn’t have a view of the sniper’s nest window, due to the trees and other structures between him and the TSBD, during the shooting; but that he did have a view of JFK’s head.

Well it is good to see you take witnesses into account even if they were 150-200 feet away, had an obstructed view and did not provide a statement at the time, giving their statement 25 years later.  Presumably, you would find the recollections of people who had an unobstructed view from much closer - some only 20 feet away, many of whom gave their statements within hours of the events to be almost as compelling:

• T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car.") (heard 3 shots)
• Nellie Connally (4 H 147. "I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.") (heard 3 shots)
• David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President’s head") (heard 3 shots)
• Bobby Hargis (heard 3 shots) (6 H 294):
  “….I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
  Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally’s?
  Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don’t know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.
• Gayle Newman (19 H 488: "President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car") (heard 3 shots)
• William Newman (19 H 490 "The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it.") (first (22Nov63) described only 2 shots and later (24Nov63) 3 shots)
• John Chism (19 H 472 “When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side.” (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were).
• Faye Chism (19 H 471 “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left.”) (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were)
• James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any other. It shows JFK reacting.) (more than 2 shots-not sure)
• Abraham Zapruder (TV interview at 2:00 pm Nov. 22/63: https://www.jfk.org/the-collections/abraham-zapruder-film/zapruder-interview-transcript/ - " I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two) (2 or 3 shots, not sure)
• SA Clint Hill (2 H 138, Recalled only two shots. After the first: "I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left". CE1024, 18 H 742: "I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left."). (2 shots recalled)
• Linda Willis (7 H 498. “ Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn’t tell where the second shot went.) (heard 3 shots)
• SA George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.”) (heard 3 shots)
• SA Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. “As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard”). (heard 3 shots)
• SA Emory Roberts (CE1024, 18 H 734. “12:30 p.m. First of three shots fired, at which time I saw the President lean toward Mrs. Kennedy. I do not know if it was the next shot or third shot that hit the President in the head, but I saw ,,,what appeared to be a small explosion on the right side of the President's head, saw blood, at which time the President fell further to his left.”). (heard 3 shots)
• Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.) (heard 3 shots)
• Harold Norman (3 H 191. “but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,”) (heard 3 shots)
• Malcolm Summers (Affidavit, 19 H 500 “The President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no", then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots.”) (described 2 shots - not asked how many shots he heard).
• Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, “As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.” (heard 3 or 4 shots).
• Jean Newman (Affidavit, 19 H 489, “The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.”) (heard 3 or 4 shots in all – Dallas PD 22Nov63)
• Charles Brehm (Dallas Times Herald statement, Nov. 22, 1963 “The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. ‘The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just slumped’.”) (heard 3 shots but said the second shot hit JFK in the head because he saw his hair fly up).
• Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he states that he thought “the President was ducking from the first shot”)

[Charles Collins]

Well it is good to see you take witnesses into account even if they were 150-200 feet away, had an obstructed view and did not provide a statement at the time, giving their statement 25 years later.  Presumably, you would find the recollections of people who had an unobstructed view from much closer - some only 20 feet away, and gave their statements within hours of the events to be almost as compelling:

• T.E. Moore (24 H 534, "President KENNEDY had reached the Thornton Freeway sign, a shot was fired and Mr. MOORE observed the President slumping forward in the Presidential car.") (heard 3 shots)
• Nellie Connally (4 H 147. "I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.") (heard 3 shots)
• David Powers (7 H 473: "I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President’s head") (heard 3 shots)
• Bobby Hargis (heard 3 shots) (6 H 294):
  “….I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.
  Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally’s?
  Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don’t know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.
• Gayle Newman (19 H 488: "President Kennedy kind of jumped like he was startled and covered his head with his hands and then raised up. After I heard the first shot, another shot sounded and Governor grabbed his chest and lay back on the seat of the car") (heard 3 shots)
• William Newman (19 H 490 "The President jumped up in his seat, and it looked like what I thought was a firecracker had went off and I thought he had realized it.") (first (22Nov63) described only 2 shots and later (24Nov63) 3 shots)
• John Chism (19 H 472 “When I saw the motorcade round the corner, the President was standing and waving to the crowd. And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved at the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what sounded like one shot, and I saw him, "The President," sit back in his seat and lean his head to his left side.” (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were).
• Faye Chism (19 H 471 “As the President was coming through, I heard this first shot, and the President fell to his left.”) (described 2 shots but not asked how many there were)
• James Altgens (7 H 520. He said his z255 shot was after first shot and before any other. It shows JFK reacting.) (more than 2 shots-not sure)
• Abraham Zapruder (TV interview at 2:00 pm Nov. 22/63: http://www.jfk.org/Research/Zapruder/Transcript.htm - " I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two) (2 or 3 shots, not sure)
• SA Clint Hill (2 H 138, Recalled only two shots. After the first: "I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left". CE1024, 18 H 742: "I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left."). (2 shots recalled)
• Linda Willis (7 H 498. “ Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn’t tell where the second shot went.) (heard 3 shots)
• SA George Hickey (CE1024, 18 H 761. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them.”) (heard 3 shots)
• SA Sam Kinney (CE1024, 18 H 731. “As we completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time I glanced from the tailights of the President's car that I use for gaging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard”). (heard 3 shots)
• SA Emory Roberts (CE1024, 18 H 734. “12:30 p.m. First of three shots fired, at which time I saw the President lean toward Mrs. Kennedy. I do not know if it was the next shot or third shot that hit the President in the head, but I saw ,,,what appeared to be a small explosion on the right side of the President's head, saw blood, at which time the President fell further to his left.”). (heard 3 shots)
• Cecil Ault (24 H 534. Viewing from court house on Houston. Reported to have seen JFK rise up in his seat after first shot.) (heard 3 shots)
• Harold Norman (3 H 191. “but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something,”) (heard 3 shots)
• Malcolm Summers (Affidavit, 19 H 500 “The President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot and saw the President slump down in the car and heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no", then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I realized these were shots.”) (described 2 shots - not asked how many shots he heard).
• Mary Moorman (Affidavit, 19 H 487, “As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over.” (heard 3 or 4 shots).
• Jean Newman (Affidavit, 19 H 489, “The motorcade had just passed me when I heard that I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report, it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort of ducked his head down and I thought at the time that it probably scared him, too, just like it did me, because he flinched, like he jumped. I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest.”) (heard 3 or 4 shots in all – Dallas PD 22Nov63)
• Charles Brehm (Dallas Times Herald statement, Nov. 22, 1963 “The witness Brehm was shaking uncontrollably as he further described the shooting. ‘The first shot must not have been too solid, because he just slumped’.”) (heard 3 shots but said the second shot hit JFK in the head because he saw his hair fly up).
• Pierce Allman, (WFAA radio interview, in which he states that he thought “the President was ducking from the first shot”)

Another aspect to consider regarding the eyewitnesses that were close to the limo during the shooting is the noise factor. There was the crowd noise, the multiple Harley Davidson Motorcycles noise, the noise created by the limo and other motorcade vehicles, and even a train going over the triple underpass during the shooting. At the point of impact of the headshot (Z313) the limo was roughly equidistant to the triple underpass (where the noisy train was moving) and the sniper’s nest window. All of this extra noise level in the vicinity of the limo would be a disadvantage, particularly to the closest witnesses, to being able to clearly distinguish the shots above the other noise. Granted, some of them appear to have heard three shots, but quite a few did not. Harkness’ position was well away from much of the extra noise being created in the immediate vicinity of the limo.

[Andrew Mason]

"McIntyre appears to  be leaning left to check the left side of the limo.  He did not provide a statement so we don't have anything to refer his actions to."

The fact you are unaware of McIntyre's WC testimony says it all. Total incompetence

When you suggest that someone is incompetent because you think they have missed something, it can backfire.  You risk having that term used against you when it turns out that you are wrong. That, as well as basic principles of good advocacy and civility in debate, are good reasons to avoid this kind of approach in your arguments.

It would be helpful if you could direct us all to William McIntyre WC testimony. It appears that the WC did not include it in their 26 volumes.

[Andrew Mason]

Another aspect to consider regarding the eyewitnesses that were close to the limo during the shooting is the noise factor. There was the crowd noise, the multiple Harley Davidson Motorcycles noise, the noise created by the limo and other motorcade vehicles, and even a train going over the triple underpass during the shooting. At the point of impact of the headshot (Z313) the limo was roughly equidistant to the triple underpass (where the noisy train was moving) and the sniper’s nest window. All of this extra noise level in the vicinity of the limo would be a disadvantage, particularly to the closest witnesses, to being able to clearly distinguish the shots above the other noise. Granted, some of them appear to have heard three shots, but quite a few did not. Harkness’ position was well away from much of the extra noise being created in the immediate vicinity of the limo.

I expect there were some who were unable to hear that "horrible, ear-shattering noise", but it would have more likely been due to deafness than the shot sound being buried in background noise.